The Better Than You Remember Thread

[foxfield]

On 1/31/2019 at 11:45 AM, ShaneDawg85 said:

I must have been too young, because for the longest time I did not remember Kevin Brown pitching a season for the Orioles, and for whatever reason, when I did I always thought he wasn't very good.  Oh man was I wrong.  One season, 4.3 WAR, and the best pitcher on the '95 Orioles not named Mussina.  Talk about a talented rotation, too.  Moose, Brown, Scott Erickson, Jamie Moyer, and Ben McDonald.  That should have been a recipe to print playoff tickets even in a strike shortened season.  There's a very big argument to be made, in my mind, that the '95 Orioles were the biggest underachiever of any team in franchise history.  

I do this all the time.  I see something about his huge contract...and I vaguely remember he was here, and I can't for the life of me recall and then I look and Im like...how did we let him leave?  

On 1/31/2019 at 12:14 PM, Dipper9 said:

Great topic.

My poster boy for this is Albert Belle.  Everyone always blasts that signing and its commonly used as an example of why Angelos was against long term high dollar deals, but the fact is his on field statistics were fantastic for the Orioles, and if not for the injury things may have turned out very differently.  

That said, he's still an assclown!  

I feel the same way.  On all accounts.  

[Babkins]

Thought I would throw Cal’s age-38 season into the conversation.

It was 1999, the first year after he’d ended the streak, and the first time in his career that he’d spent time on the DL. A nagging lower-back issue limited him to only 86 games; he missed about four weeks in late April and early May, the entire month of August, and the season’s final stretch at the end of September. He was looking pretty hobbled at the beginning of June, but his bat heated up as the days did. (He was particularly lethal in the 22–1 victory over Atlanta on June 13, going 6-for-6 with a two homers, a double, and six batted in. Irrelevant personal-history note: I was studying abroad in London that summer, and one of the networks happened to carry that game. I was so pleased to see the Orioles on TV in England that I stayed up all night to watch it.)

For the season, in 354 PA, Cal posted his highest-ever OPS at .952. Remarkably, he drew only a Schoopian 13 walks, but still managed a .368 OBP on the strength of a .340 BA (I’ll always be a sucker for batting average). Thanks to 18 home runs and 27 doubles, he slugged a career-best .584.

Juiced-ball era or not, it was the last time Cal was awesome, and I was just young enough not to realize it was the end.

[Redskins Rick]

On 2/1/2019 at 3:43 PM, OFFNY said:

The complete opposite is true, particularly of Jackson's 1976 season with the Orioles.

Reggie Jackson may have been a pain-in-the-ass, but he was far from lazy and/or aloof from caring in the regular season.

Tom Boswell of the Wash Post disagrees:

Quote

That's Jackson, child of his times, in summation. Over a six-month haul, he gets bored, a little lazy. But for one month, one week or one game, Jackson is fierce.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1981/10/16/reggie-jackson-his-place-in-history/438f6487-cafe-4cff-a7ad-77e5d400e503/?utm_term=.16e0d03f3791

I also recall reading this in books wrote by some of his teammates, like Munson.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

On 2/2/2019 at 6:52 AM, Babkins said:

Thought I would throw Cal’s age-38 season into the conversation.

It was 1999, the first year after he’d ended the streak, and the first time in his career that he’d spent time on the DL. A nagging lower-back issue limited him to only 86 games; he missed about four weeks in late April and early May, the entire month of August, and the season’s final stretch at the end of September. He was looking pretty hobbled at the beginning of June, but his bat heated up as the days did. (He was particularly lethal in the 22–1 victory over Atlanta on June 13, going 6-for-6 with a two homers, a double, and six batted in. Irrelevant personal-history note: I was studying abroad in London that summer, and one of the networks happened to carry that game. I was so pleased to see the Orioles on TV in England that I stayed up all night to watch it.)

For the season, in 354 PA, Cal posted his highest-ever OPS at .952. Remarkably, he drew only a Schoopian 13 walks, but still managed a .368 OBP on the strength of a .340 BA (I’ll always be a sucker for batting average). Thanks to 18 home runs and 27 doubles, he slugged a career-best .584.

Juiced-ball era or not, it was the last time Cal was awesome, and I was just young enough not to realize it was the end.

That year Cal hit .332 on balls in play, 2nd best mark of his whole career.  If you compare his '99 and 2000 seasons he had a little higher ISO in '99, but was still above his career mark in 2000.  His secondary average (extra bases on hits, walks, etc) was very similar in the two years.  Strikeout rate very similar.  The only real difference was that in '99 he hit .332 when he put the ball in the field, and in '00 he hit .243, the 2nd lowest in any of his full seasons.  

Some of that was probably more solid contact, but I'm sure a lot of it was more stuff fell in.  Great luck in '99, bad luck in '00.

[OFFNY]

On 2/1/2019 at 7:57 AM, Redskins Rick said:

 

You were probably like me, and not a Reggie fan before he came here. I never cared for his attitude, and he appeared to coast through games until he turned on "Mr. October."

 

 

 

On 2/1/2019 at 3:43 PM, OFFNY said:

o

The complete opposite is true, particularly of Jackson's 1976 season with the Orioles.

Reggie Jackson may have been a pain-in-the-ass, but he was far from lazy and/or aloof from caring in the regular season.

Jackson posted a career-high for stolen bases in a season (28) in his lone season playing for the Orioles ........ in spite of missing the first month of the season when he held out. 

 

When one of the all-time great power hitters steals more bases in one season than he ever has before or after, in spite of missing one month of the season ........ playing for a manager that was not particularly known as making stolen bases a high priority ........ there is no possible way that his effort(s) can be construed as uncaring/indifferent.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

 

Tom Boswell of the Wash Post disagrees:

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/sports/1981/10/16/reggie-jackson-his-place-in-history/438f6487-cafe-4cff-a7ad-77e5d400e503/?utm_term=.16e0d03f3791

 

 

 I also recall reading this in books wrote by some of his teammates, like Munson.

 

o

 

Boswell (unlike myself) offers no evidence of this, other than his assertion/statement.

Regarding Munson, Jackson had made some very controversial comments to the press shortly after he arrived in New York, asserting that it was he and not long-tenured Yankee Thurman Munson that "stirred the drink" for the Yankees early in the 1977 season. That was viewed by Munson (and many others) as insensitive and selfish (and foolish, considering how well-liked Munson was by the Yankees' players and fans at-large at the time.) Fortunately for the Yankees, Munson was such a team player that he actually went to bat for Jackson with one of his teammates (Lou Piniella) to try to persuade both owner George Steinbrenner and manager Billy Martin to reinstate Jackson to the clean-up spot in the order, as opposed to the 5-spot later in that same (1977) season. 

 

o

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, OFFNY said:

 

 

 

 

o

 

Boswell (unlike myself) offers no evidence of this, other than his assertion/statement.

Regarding Munson, Jackson had made some very controversial comments to the press shortly after he arrived in New York, asserting that it was he and not long-tenured Yankee Thurman Munson that "stirred the drink" for the Yankees early in the 1977 season. That was viewed by Munson (and many others) as insensitive and selfish (and foolish, considering how well-liked Munson was by the Yankees' players and fans at-large at the time.) Fortunately for the Yankees, Munson was such a team player that he actually WENT TO BAT FOR JACKSON with one of his teammates (Lou Piniella) to try to persuade both owner George Steinbrenner and manager Billy Martin to reinstate Jackson to the clean-up spot in the order, as opposed to the 5-spot later in that same (1977) season. 

 

o

Boswell was one of the best reporters covering the game, that I ever read. Not just my own opinion.

I am sure, he didnt pull that out of thin air.

But, it was Reggie that made the BR top 30 clubhouse cancer and nothing to do with Boswell.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1035006-30-worst-clubhouse-cancers-in-baseball-history#slide30

Im sure, the t

[Babkins]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

That year Cal hit .332 on balls in play, 2nd best mark of his whole career.  If you compare his '99 and 2000 seasons he had a little higher ISO in '99, but was still above his career mark in 2000.  His secondary average (extra bases on hits, walks, etc) was very similar in the two years.  Strikeout rate very similar.  The only real difference was that in '99 he hit .332 when he put the ball in the field, and in '00 he hit .243, the 2nd lowest in any of his full seasons.  

Some of that was probably more solid contact, but I'm sure a lot of it was more stuff fell in.  Great luck in '99, bad luck in '00.

Illuminating! Thanks for that analysis.

[OFFNY]

19 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

 

Boswell was one of the best reporters covering the game, that I ever read. Not just my own opinion.

I am sure, he didnt pull that out of thin air.

But, it was Reggie that made the BR top 30 clubhouse cancer and nothing to do with Boswell.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1035006-30-worst-clubhouse-cancers-in-baseball-history#slide30

 

 

o

 

Boswell offered no evidence supporting his claim. If he had any, he would certainly have given some supporting evidence of this, which he did not.

Also, you are moving the goalposts with you citation of the Bleacher Report in regard to Jackson being a clubhouse cancer. The subject was specifically in regard to Jackson being lazy and indifferent in the regular season. I stated in my OP that Jackson may have been a pain-in-the-ass, but he was far from lazy/indifferent in the regular season. Our beloved Earl Weaver would have been the first to say so if he thought that he had been (lazy and/or indifferent), and never alluded to this when speaking of Jackson's sole season with the club.

 

Over the course of the 162-game season, I'm sure that just about every player (save for perhaps an extremely rare example of somebody like Pete Rose) will not be completely focused and intent for the entire season. However, if (as I stated before) an all-time great power hitter misses a month of the season and still sets an all-time record for stolen bases playing for Earl Weaver, that would be/seem the antithesis of laziness. In fact, Jackson stole 228 bases in his career ........ that is hardly the mark of indifference/laziness for a player who is known for being a home run hitter (he had 563 career home runs.) Lazy/indifferent power hitters don't run their asses off like that on the basepaths throughout the better portion of their career(s.)

 

o

[Redskins Rick]

Just now, OFFNY said:

o

 

Boswell offered no evidence supporting his claim. If he had any, he would certainly have given some supporting evidence of this, which he did not.

Also, you are moving the goalposts with you citation of the Bleacher Report in regard to Jackson being a clubhouse cancer. The subject was specifically in regard to Jackson being lazy and indifferent in the regular season. I stated in my OP that Jackson may have been a pain-in-the-ass, but he was far from lazy/indifferent in the regular season. Our beloved Earl Weaver would have been the first to say so if he had bee (lazy and/or indifferent) and never alluded to this when speaking of Jackson.

 

Over the course of the 162-game season, I'm sure that just about every player (save for perhaps an extremely rare example of somebody like Pete Rose) will not be completely focused and intent for the entire season. However, if (as I stated before) an all-time great poweree hitter misses a month of the season and still sets an all-time record for stolen bases playing for Earl Weaver, that would be/seem the antithesis of laziness. In fact, Jackson stole 228 bases in his career ........ that is hardly the mark of indifference/laziness for a player who is known for being a home run hitter (he had 563 career home runs.) Lazy/indifferent power hitters don't run their asses off like that on the basepaths throughout the better portion of their career(s.)

 

o

Wasnt trying to move the goal posts, was explaining, but of my reason for not liking him was his attitude and lack of hustle at times. Turning it up a notch at money games.

At this point, we just have to agree to disagree and stay friends.

 

[DrungoHazewood]

On 1/31/2019 at 11:45 AM, ShaneDawg85 said:

I must have been too young, because for the longest time I did not remember Kevin Brown pitching a season for the Orioles, and for whatever reason, when I did I always thought he wasn't very good.  Oh man was I wrong.  One season, 4.3 WAR, and the best pitcher on the '95 Orioles not named Mussina.  Talk about a talented rotation, too.  Moose, Brown, Scott Erickson, Jamie Moyer, and Ben McDonald.  That should have been a recipe to print playoff tickets even in a strike shortened season.  There's a very big argument to be made, in my mind, that the '95 Orioles were the biggest underachiever of any team in franchise history.  

That was a team in flux.  It's like they looked up one day and saw that they had all this cash from sell out Camden Yards and came to the realization that they could buy baseball players with it.  They were like, dude, we can have Andy Van Slyke!  And Joe Carter!  And Matt Nokes!  And Sid Fernandez and Kevin Brown!  And Harold Baines and Kevin Bass!  Then they ran out of checks in the ledger, paused for a moment, and realized that half those guys hadn't done anything in three years.  Then they released or traded Nokes and Van Slyke and Fernandez in June, and acquired Erikson and Bonilla in July...  1996 wasn't that much different.  Sign a bunch of guys with Camden Cash, throw them together and see what happens.  

'95 was also the year Mark Smith was supposed to establish himself as a star, Leo Gomez' career went on life support, Jeffrey Hammonds was hurt (again - was that the year they discovered he was missing an ACL?), so was Allen Mills, and Curtis Goodwin, Armando Benitez, Arthur Rhodes and Manny Alexander were in no way ready to be major league regulars.

And among this chaotic lack of an organizational strategy they fired Johnny Oates and hired Phil Regan to be a 58-year-old rookie manager.  I think they achieved just what you would have expected.

[Palmoripken]

2 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

That was a team in flux.  It's like they looked up one day and saw that they had all this cash from sell out Camden Yards and came to the realization that they could buy baseball players with it.  They were like, dude, we can have Andy Van Slyke!  And Joe Carter!  And Matt Nokes!  And Sid Fernandez and Kevin Brown!  And Harold Baines and Kevin Bass!  Then they ran out of checks in the ledger, paused for a moment, and realized that half those guys hadn't done anything in three years.  Then they released or traded Nokes and Van Slyke and Fernandez in June, and acquired Erikson and Bonilla in July...  1996 wasn't that much different.  Sign a bunch of guys with Camden Cash, throw them together and see what happens.  

'95 was also the year Mark Smith was supposed to establish himself as a star, Leo Gomez' career went on life support, Jeffrey Hammonds was hurt (again - was that the year they discovered he was missing an ACL?), so was Allen Mills, and Curtis Goodwin, Armando Benitez, Arthur Rhodes and Manny Alexander were in no way ready to be major league regulars.

And among this chaotic lack of an organizational strategy they fired Johnny Oates and hired Phil Regan to be a 58-year-old rookie manager.  I think they achieved just what you would have expected.

Not to nitpick ya Drungo but Joe Carter was 1998. Carter I credit with more than anyone for showing me why RBIs are overrated. But yeah I think your assessment is right about 1995. A lot of guys passed their prime. The early Angelos years I would compare to Dan Snyder's early ownership in Washington TBH.  Who other than Regan was considered after Oates got let go? I know LaRussa was but I'm wondering if there were any other names. I do have fond memories of the 1995 offseason though becaues getting Alomar was great and I had Ripken to Alomar to Palmeiro in my head (hence my username) being the new Tinker-Evers-Chance even though those three were only that for 1996 since Cal was moved back to 3B in 1997 by Davey when we got Bordick and Davey seemed interested in moving Cal to 3B as early as 1996 too.

[TGO]

1 hour ago, Palmoripken said:

Not to nitpick ya Drungo but Joe Carter was 1998. Carter I credit with more than anyone for showing me why RBIs are overrated. But yeah I think your assessment is right about 1995. A lot of guys passed their prime. The early Angelos years I would compare to Dan Snyder's early ownership in Washington TBH.  Who other than Regan was considered after Oates got let go? I know LaRussa was but I'm wondering if there were any other names. I do have fond memories of the 1995 offseason though becaues getting Alomar was great and I had Ripken to Alomar to Palmeiro in my head (hence my username) being the new Tinker-Evers-Chance even though those three were only that for 1996 since Cal was moved back to 3B in 1997 by Davey when we got Bordick and Davey seemed interested in moving Cal to 3B as early as 1996 too.

That was the Manny Alexander experiment. Six games in July 1996. Manny had two errors and one hit.

[Palmoripken]

19 minutes ago, TGO said:

That was the Manny Alexander experiment. Six games in July 1996. Manny had two errors and one hit.

Yep. Not one of Davey’s better moments. Never got why we hung on to Alexander for so long. My memory of him is him pitching in a 26-7 blowout by the Rangers.

[Frobby]

5 minutes ago, Palmoripken said:

Yep. Not one of Davey’s better moments. Never got why we hung on to Alexander for so long. My memory of him is him pitching in a 26-7 blowout by the Rangers.

Actually, I think it was one of Davey’s better moments.    He sent a message than no player, no matter how iconic, is more important than the team.    And then they acted on it in the offseason.  

[Palmoripken]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

Actually, I think it was one of Davey’s better moments.    He sent a message than no player, no matter how iconic, is more important than the team.    And then they acted on it in the offseason.  

Yeah I suppose you’re right. Just thought Manny Alexander wasn’t the guy to do that for but getting Bordick was the right move.