Hate to do it but... Dalton Pompey?

[Sessh]

5 minutes ago, Enjoy Terror said:

Rule 5 guys are, by definition, players that teams would not afford the chance to continue their development in the minors. If the A's thought Martin would be a major leaguer after some seasoning in the minors, wouldn't they have kept him?

 

The Indians thought the same thing about Santander and it's looking like they were wrong.

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, LTO's said:

Based on he likes Hays and didn't know anything about Richie Martin prior to the Rule 5 draft. The argument is nonsensical. The vast majority of teams have their top prospects (which i wouldn't even consider Hays) spend time in AAA. It's basically impossible to say whether not speding any time in AAA hurt someone's career because it can be blamed on a plethora of other things that happen over the course of a players career. 

Hey thanks for speaking for me!

I just checked the Richie Martin thread and I don't see where I stated he had no chance to be a contributing member to a ML team in it. 

Since then I've had a chance to watch him at the plate and in the field and to me it looks like he doesn't have the talent to make it in the majors.  I don't think it is an issue of him being underdeveloped.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Fair enough. I do think there is something to be said for smoothing a player's transition by having him spend some time in AAA ball to get that extra increment of development. There are exceptions especially for first rounders like Machado and Markakis who were first rounders for a reason. Schoop wasn't even drafted, was he? He was an IFA signing, I think. Those guys are wild cards and can also have that kind of ability. I would say Rutschman is another guy though I do think he will end up spending a little time there at least under this regime.

I am not generally in favor of promoting guys to the majors from Bowie because it's a huge leap. Just because some guys can do it doesn't really change my mind much. I will say that it's easier to see how a pitcher's development was hurt than it is a hitter's development. I do think many hitters benefit from at least some time in AAA. Some guys can only hit AAA pitching and ultimately end up being AAAA players, so there must be a significant difference in difficulty there and I'm not sure it's necessarily good to skip it altogether. The easier a player can transition to the next level, the better it is for them. Elias does seem to regard AAA as a beneficial level of development.

From what I have read the jump from low A to high A is the big one.

Of course I think the introduction of the ML balls to AAA greatly increases the importance of AAA for pitchers.

[Enjoy Terror]

Just now, Sessh said:

The Indians thought the same thing about Santander and it's looking like they were wrong.

A guy has 150 good plate appearances in June and July and the Indians are wrong

but Dwight Smith Jr. has 150 good plate appearances in April and May and the dude needs to get cut. 

Fickle bunch.

[Sessh]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I don't think it is an issue of him being underdeveloped.

Ok, here's a question for you. What would you have to see to think a positional player in the majors was suffering from a lack of minor league development?

 

[scOtt]

40 minutes ago, Lucky_13 said:

Agreed.  I would have personally kept all those guys on the roster out of spring training.  Service time games are stupid, you can always try sign guys to cheap extensions early.

Also, I think you can afford to let position players take their lumps at the big league level, especially in non-competitive seasons.

The flip side to that is if Hays and Diaz are in the outfield opening day, Santander probably gets limited chances and he's showing he has some ability.  

That's part of Elias' reasoning (imho) for keeping those guys down. This should be our worst ML year of the rebuild. It's about evaluating the more fringe prospects in the system. Let the better prospects work their way up thru the system. I also just think that's a thing with ME, prospects working up thru the system, all levels.

Also lets the players work with all the coaches in the minors. Even if they're ALL dead on the same page in philosophy, they all have their own unique experience to share with the players.

[Sessh]

1 minute ago, Enjoy Terror said:

A guy has 150 good plate appearances in June and July and the Indians are wrong

but Dwight Smith Jr. has 150 good plate appearances in April and May and the dude needs to get cut. 

Fickle bunch.

I said looking like they are wrong. If you still don't think Santander is starting to look like a major league player, you haven't been watching. Smith is a huge liability on defense and has no elite skills to speak of. Smith isn't looking anything like a major league player.. in any way.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Sessh said:

Ok, here's a question for you. What would you have to see to think a positional player in the majors was suffering from a lack of minor league development?

 

An inability to adapt to pitchers attacking his weaknesses despite the physical skills to do so.  An inability to handle certain pitches despite the physical skills to do so.

A lack of proficiency at a defensive position they have not played much at.  (for instance if Mountcastle was called up and looked lost in LF)

 

[scOtt]

31 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Richie Martin?

He WILL get his time at AAA.

[weams]

14 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Fair enough. I do think there is something to be said for smoothing a player's transition by having him spend some time in AAA ball to get that extra increment of development. There are exceptions especially for first rounders like Machado and Markakis who were first rounders for a reason. Schoop wasn't even drafted, was he? He was an IFA signing, I think. Those guys are wild cards and can also have that kind of ability. I would say Rutschman is another guy though I do think he will end up spending a little time there at least under this regime.

I am not generally in favor of promoting guys to the majors from Bowie because it's a huge leap. Just because some guys can do it doesn't really change my mind much. I will say that it's easier to see how a pitcher's development was hurt than it is a hitter's development. I do think many hitters benefit from at least some time in AAA. Some guys can only hit AAA pitching and ultimately end up being AAAA players, so there must be a significant difference in difficulty there and I'm not sure it's necessarily good to skip it altogether. The easier a player can transition to the next level, the better it is for them. Elias does seem to regard AAA as a beneficial level of development.

I believe the good ones, the ones that were destined to be among the 800, handle it fine. And tell you when they are ready. Management of service time and control is another thing. 

[scOtt]

16 minutes ago, weams said:

And Healthcare!

And $500K+ salary for a year!

[Sessh]

1 minute ago, Can_of_corn said:

An inability to adapt to pitchers attacking his weaknesses despite the physical skills to do so.  An inability to handle certain pitches despite the physical skills to do so.

A lack of proficiency at a defensive position they have not played much at.  (for instance if Mountcastle was called up and looked lost in LF)

Ok, so you don't think AAA pitchers couldn't expose weaknesses than an AA pitcher wasn't developed enough to attack effectively? Maybe his pitches aren't good enough yet or his command needs too much work. Certainly, MLB pitchers can identify and attack just about any weakness relentlessly, so what if some weaknesses that would have been exposed by AAA pitchers was completely skipped and they go right to the majors where those pitchers not only expose the AAA level weaknesses, but also weaknesses he didn't even know he had. That's a lot to deal with all at once.

[Flash- bd]

30 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Will pass on Dalton....Now Pompey Magnus...well, he didn’t do too well trying to change teams either. 

Dunno about Richie Martin, but Ricky Martin seems to have done fine changing teams. 

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, Sessh said:

Ok, so you don't think AAA pitchers couldn't expose weaknesses than an AA pitcher wasn't developed enough to attack effectively? Maybe his pitches aren't good enough yet or his command needs too much work. Certainly, MLB pitchers can identify and attack just about any weakness relentlessly, so what if some weaknesses that would have been exposed by AAA pitchers was completely skipped and they go right to the majors where those pitchers not only expose the AAA level weaknesses, but also weaknesses he didn't even know he had. That's a lot to deal with all at once.

I don't think it is an insurmountable hurdle.  Not even close.  Not to the point where it hinders the player long term.  Sure they might struggle at the ML level a bit more than if they had spent time at AAA, but that isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[Frobby]

1 hour ago, mdbdotcom said:

Schoop was a starter in MLB at 22, Manny at 19, Markakis at 22. Hays is not as high a prospect as those players, but he's 24, has already spent time in MLB and is doing well in AAA. Unless Elias sees an area where his development is lacking, he should be up. I expect to see him up in August, maybe the first week. 

You could argue about Hays vs. Schoop as a prospect.    It’s hard to be starting in the majors at 22 when you were drafted a month before your 21st birthday.    It’s not always about who gets there youngest.    However, no doubt Hays’ star has lost some shine since pre-2018 when he was ranked 21 by BA, 23 by MLB.com and 72 by BP.    Schoop’s highest rankings were 82 by BA and 80 by BP; MLB.com never had him in their top 100.