Video of Altuve

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, Philip said:

 This was an organized, systematic, detailed scandal that involved the entire 25 man roster and all the coaches. It is literally impossible that nobody on the 25 man roster knew what was going on.

The idea that individual players should not be penalized because the player’s union will rebel is a foolish argument at best. The players union would be in a position of protecting cheaters. The only possible defense would be, “my guy didn’t know what was going on and did not participate.“ In a criminal trial you’ve got to prove guilt “beyond a reasonable doubt“ but in a civil trial you only need to prove guilt with a “preponderance of the evidence“ and by that standard, nobody on the Astros roster or coaching staff can escape. 

 So yes, the players should be penalized. Someone suggested that the roster should forfeit their playoff bonus, with which I heartily  agree. I would include a requirement for a written admission and apology from every player.

No it’s not going to happen, but every reason that it is not going to happen is a bad reason.

Dear MLB

I am very sorry for cheating on the World Series

I know that you, your league and MLB has zero tolerance on dishonesty. In my ambition to receive recognition and a ring, I lost sight of the fact that these things are earned and not freely given.

This ordeal has been very stressful, but I have learned much from this situation. Cheating—no matter the motives or the rewards—is immoral and unjustifiable.

If you, my peers and the media are willing to accept my apology, I humbly ask that you reconsider or lighten my punishment. The dedication that MLB has shown to its players’ earning potential is something I have a great and newfound respect for. I have learned much already, and I hope to continue earning from MLB.

Thank you for your time and I hope to hear from you soon.

Sincerely,
{Sender}

[thezeroes]

The cheating was done to win which ended up being a monetary gain for the club and its players.  Fines should be one third of their respective salaries for a two year period.  This would also put them on a list that if they are caught again their contracts will be nullified and they could not seek employment in MLB for three years.  Have the fines distributed equally to all the ball clubs that have played these teams.  You then, as a player and as a ball club, would be paying other clubs to put a team on the field against you.

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, thezeroes said:

The cheating was done to win which ended up being a monetary gain for the club and its players.  Fines should be one third of their respective salaries for a two year period.  This would also put them on a list that if they are caught again their contracts will be nullified and they could not seek employment in MLB for three years.  Have the fines distributed equally to all the ball clubs that have played these teams.  You then, as a player and as a ball club, would be paying other clubs to put a team on the field against you.

So Altuve should be fined 17.3M?

Yea, that isn't overreacting at all.

Seems like something the MLBPA would sign off on.

[Can_of_corn]

Ohh can we take the money away from the 51 Giant players' heirs?  How about the White Sox and Mets teams of the 80's?  They still have money right?  How about the decedents of that 1900 Phillies team?  If they charge interest on the fine I bet it'd be a lot of money for the league.

If a guy is in the minors now after being in the majors in 2017 are they docking his MiLB salary?

[thezeroes]

The higher your salary, the longer in the league usually.  The longer tenured, the more responsible for the issue or for not stopping the issue.  The higher salaried benefited more than those that were playing at league minimum, hence the heavier the fine.  The other part would be if they were suspended for a year as the GM and Manager were, what would be that cost??

Altuve wants to be the face of the franchise, pay the price for the Franchises Indiscretions.

[Frobby]

2 hours ago, atomic said:

Beltran is probably affected as he is borderline Hall of Fame.

Yes, and because he was borderline before, he’s probably out now.   

Random fact I read today: Chipper Jones had 2726 hits and 4755 total bases.   Beltran had 2725 hits and 4751 total bases.  

Nevertheless, Beltran was much more borderline than Jones.   Jones had a career OPS+ of 141 and was worth 85.2 rWAR, to 119 and 69.6 for Beltran.   

 

[Just Regular]

36 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Chipper Jones had 2726 hits and 4755 total bases.   Beltran had 2725 hits and 4751 total bases.

With just an 0-for-400 Jones could have had Beltran's career at the dish.   Jones's is one of the most immaculate B-Ref pages to look at from the "never even sniffed a bad year" perspective.

On this Astros/Red Sox scandal, whatever its true talent of horrible ultimately grows into, that the Yankees and Dodgers are among its principal victims will help it reach its full potential.

[Ripken]

Bringing up cheating from decades ago only strengthens the point that these players should be punished now.  It's the complete lack of deterrence then that has allowed it to continue.  The Black Sox were 100 years ago.  That, and a few light/random cases of cork and sandpaper aside, nothing has ever been done about cheating.  Manfred needs to set the precedent.  No one bats an eye when someone gets 50-80 games for substance violations.  If you want cheating to continue in the next hundred years, as it has in the last hundred, then do nothing, which is the path MLB has chosen.  Ignoring player punishment is the coward's way out of this.

[Can_of_corn]

16 minutes ago, Ripken said:

Bringing up cheating from decades ago only strengthens the point that these players should be punished now.  It's the complete lack of deterrence then that has allowed it to continue.  The Black Sox were 100 years ago.  That, and a few light/random cases of cork and sandpaper aside, nothing has ever been done about cheating.  Manfred needs to set the precedent.  No one bats an eye when someone gets 50-80 games for substance violations.  If you want cheating to continue in the next hundred years, as it has in the last hundred, then do nothing, which is the path MLB has chosen.  Ignoring player punishment is the coward's way out of this.

I don't see how that makes sense at all.

They had a chance to lay out penalties for this type of behavior when the Red Sox got caught.   They chose not too.  Too late now to go after players. 

They can put something down in writing (working with the MLBPA) and get the next guys.

[LookinUp]

On 1/19/2020 at 10:07 AM, Ripken said:

This is the attitude that allows the cheating to continue.  If you want it to stop, players have to pay.  If it harms another team that's too bad.  The integrity of the game is more important than anything else.

I understand everyone's emotions about going after players, but you need written rules first. It's really not that hard. You can go after people who did things in the past against the written rules to make you feel better, but you pick a huge fight with the union. You really only deter future behavior if you make explicit rules and punishments that go to the players, coaches, etc.

 

[Moose Milligan]

2 hours ago, LookinUp said:

I understand everyone's emotions about going after players, but you need written rules first. It's really not that hard. You can go after people who did things in the past against the written rules to make you feel better, but you pick a huge fight with the union. You really only deter future behavior if you make explicit rules and punishments that go to the players, coaches, etc.

 

Whoa.  It's like....a well thought out, measured response that deals with reality.  What a concept.  Well done, LookinUp, well done! 

[Ripken]

8 hours ago, LookinUp said:

I understand everyone's emotions about going after players, but you need written rules first. It's really not that hard. You can go after people who did things in the past against the written rules to make you feel better, but you pick a huge fight with the union. You really only deter future behavior if you make explicit rules and punishments that go to the players, coaches, etc.

At least one written rule was broken.  That's why the Astros were punished.  Sandy Alderson, then baseball’s executive vice president of baseball operations, sent the following memo to clubs in 2001:  Please be reminded that the use of electronic equipment during a game is restricted. No club shall use electronic equipment, including walkie-talkies and cellular telephones, to communicate to, or with, any on-field personnel, including those in the dugout, bullpen, field and – during the game – the clubhouse. Such equipment may not be used for the purpose of stealing signs or conveying information designed to give a club an advantage. 

Commissioner Rob Manfred, said it was too difficult to punish the players because it was impractical given the number involved and their degrees of participation. Further, player punishment could have prompted an appeal or grievance from the players union.  In other words, Manfred never said he couldn't punish the players.  If that were true, Manfred would have covered his ass with it: "Boy, I'd sure like to suspend these shameful perpetrators but unfortunately my hands are really tied by these danged inadequate MLB laws."   He could have and should have punished the players but he's a coward when it comes to the union.

[mdbdotcom]

8 hours ago, Ripken said:

He could have and should have punished the players but he's a coward when it comes to the union.

He's a realist. Player punishment will come in the form of boos from fans and lack of endorsement deals.

[Can_of_corn]

Fun piece on McCann.

https://stream.org/mlb-cheating-scandal-brian-mccann/

 

[atomic]

On 1/19/2020 at 11:26 AM, Can_of_corn said:

Ohh can we take the money away from the 51 Giant players' heirs?  How about the White Sox and Mets teams of the 80's?  They still have money right?  How about the decedents of that 1900 Phillies team?  If they charge interest on the fine I bet it'd be a lot of money for the league.

If a guy is in the minors now after being in the majors in 2017 are they docking his MiLB salary?

This might be the dumbest argument I have ever read about anything ever.  You might want to think before you type.