Jump to content

The best pitching performance ever for the Orioles

Moose Milligan

By Moose Milligan
in Orioles Talk

 Share

Recommended Posts

Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

Posted
Posted
7 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

Since Ks are  the only measure this guy used to determine “best” pitching performance.  Not the context of the game as to important or not or whether it was against a quality opponent or not. 

 When Erik Bedard pitched a complete game against the Texas Rangers in 2007 with 15 strikeouts, Palmer's broadcasting partner Gary Thorne asked rhetorically, "Have you ever seen a better pitched game than that?" To which Palmer replied, "Well, I did throw a no-hitter."

 

So you are discounting SIX walks just because he didn't allow any hits?  Almost twice as many strikeouts?  Maybe if Bedard had the same caliber of defense behind him that Palmer he he wouldn't have allowed any hits?

Link to comment
Share on other sites
  • Replies 35
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

Moose Milligan
Moose Milligan

....and every other MLB team. https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/23861547/the-best-pitching-performance-ever-all-30-teams Baltimore Orioles: Erik Bedard (July 7, 2007, versus Rangers)

Just Regular
Just Regular

So much this, and I say it just as a boxscore observer born in the 1970's. https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/LAN/LAN196610050.shtml The line even can please the 21st Century DIPS conn

OldNewGuy
OldNewGuy

A game that was big in my memory was Hoyt Wilhelm’s no hitter against the despised Yankees on 20 Sep 1958. The Yanks went on to win the WS that year and the O’s finished with a losing record for their

tntoriole Hangout Grand Counsel

tntoriole

Posted
Posted
3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

So you are discounting SIX walks just because he didn't allow any hits?  Almost twice as many strikeouts?  Maybe if Bedard had the same caliber of defense behind him that Palmer he he wouldn't have allowed any hits?

Jim would probably tell you why he walked each one...strategically.  

Maybe if they all swung at pitches in 1969 like Sammy Sosa did in 2007, Palmer would have struck out a lot more too.   The game was obviously different.  That in 2097 was Bedard’s only complete game and only shutout...Palmer had 6 shutouts and 11 complete games that year of 1969.  

Just different ...and, in my view, of both performers, Jim’s was the better. 

A no hitter is a unique pitching performance, I have been going to games for over 50 years and have not seen one.   2 hitters are a dime a dozen and I have seen a bunch, and strikeouts are interesting (though not democratic, as Crash Davis would say) but that doesn’t by itself give Bedard the alltime greatest Oriole pitching performance to me. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

Posted
Posted

Top 25 games in modern Orioles history by game score: 

                                                                                                                                                                                                 
Rk                 Player          Date  Tm Opp   Rslt    AppDec   IP  H R ER BB SO HR UER Pit Str GSc IR IS BF AB 2B 3B IBB HBP SH SF GDP SB CS PO BK WP  ERA    WPA  RE24   aLI DFS(DK) DFS(FD)
1            Jerry Walker 1959-09-11(2) BAL CHW  W 1-0 SHO(16) W 16.0  6 0  0  3  4  0           0       111 55 51  0  0   0   0  1  0   1  0  2  0  0  0 0.00  1.591 7.570                 1.570
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
2           Mike Flanagan    1979-08-15 BAL CHW  W 2-1  CG(12) W 12.0  5 1  1  1 12  1           0        99 41 39  0  0   0   0  1  0   1  1  0  0  0  1 0.75  0.974 5.108                 1.535
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
3             Erik Bedard    2007-07-07 BAL TEX  W 3-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  0 15  0   0 109  79        98 27 27  0  0   0   0  0  0   2  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.617 5.004                  .966
4            Mike Mussina    2000-08-01 BAL MIN W 10-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  2 15  0   0 125  85        98 32 30  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.293 5.113                  .384
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
5               Ray Moore    1957-05-21 BAL DET  L 1-2     GS-15 15.0  8 1  1  9  9  0           0        97 59 48  1  0   2   0  2  0   0  0  3  0  0  0 0.60  1.212 5.528                 1.900
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
6             Dylan Bundy    2017-08-29 BAL SEA  W 4-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  2 12  0   0 116  85        95 33 30  0  0   0   1  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.502 4.611  .953   50.85   75.00
7            Mike Mussina    1997-05-30 BAL CLE  W 3-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  0 10  0           0        95 28 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.483 4.843                  .709
8          Connie Johnson    1957-08-23 BAL KCA  W 2-1  CG(12) W 12.0  3 1  1  4  7  0           0        95 43 38  1  0   0   0  1  0   0  0  0  0  0  1 0.75  1.014 4.664                 1.468
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
9            Mike Mussina    1992-07-17 BAL TEX  W 8-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  1 10  0   0 117  80        94 29 28  1  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.313 4.208                  .653
10            Milt Pappas    1964-09-02 BAL MIN  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  1 10  0           0        94 29 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.697 4.107                 1.125
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
11             Jim Palmer    1974-09-27 BAL MIL  W 1-0     GS-12 12.0  4 0  0  6  5  0           0        93 44 36  0  0   2   0  2  0   1  2  0  0  0  1 0.00  1.023 5.315                 1.792
12            Tom Phoebus    1968-04-27 BAL BOS  W 6-0     SHO W  9.0  0 0  0  3  9  0           0        93 29 26  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  1  0  0  1 0.00  0.218 3.420                  .438
13           Hoyt Wilhelm    1958-09-20 BAL NYY  W 1-0     SHO W  9.0  0 0  0  2  8  0           0        93 28 26  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  1  0  0  0 0.00  0.680 3.956                 1.110
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
14             Jim Palmer    1977-07-23 BAL TEX  L 0-1     GS-11 11.0  7 0  0  0  9  0           0        92 39 38  0  0   0   0  1  0   1  1  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.935 5.242                 1.733
15          Wayne Garland    1976-06-21 BAL BOS  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  1 10  0           0        92 30 29  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  1  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.553 3.749                 1.109
16             Jim Palmer    1975-08-21 BAL TEX  W 4-2     GS-12 12.0  5 2  1  0  6  0           1        92 42 40  0  0   0   0  2  0   1  1  0  0  0  0 0.75  0.716 3.690                 1.540
17           Mike Cuellar    1975-07-26 BAL MIL  W 4-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  3 10  0           0        92 29 26  0  0   0   0  0  0   2  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.336 4.308                  .678
18          Ross Grimsley    1974-05-22 BAL CLE  W 1-0 SHO(12) W 12.0  8 0  0  1  7  0           0        92 43 41  0  0   0   0  1  0   1  0  1  0  0  1 0.00  1.023 5.315                 1.598
19           Dave McNally 1965-10-01(1) BAL CLE  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  1 10  0           0        92 29 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   1  0  1  0  0  1 0.00  0.625 3.986                 1.025
                                                                                                                                                                                                 
20           Jason Hammel    2012-06-16 BAL ATL  W 5-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  2  8  0   0 103  65        91 30 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.357 4.369                  .587
21           Mike Mussina    1998-08-04 BAL DET  W 4-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  0  8  0   0  93  68        91 29 29  1  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.456 4.994                  .633
22           Ben McDonald    1993-07-20 BAL KCR  W 7-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  3  9  0   0 123  76        91 30 27  0  0   0   0  0  0   1  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.607 4.944                  .939
23           Ben McDonald    1992-04-09 BAL CLE  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  1  9  0   0 112  73        91 30 29  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  2  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.550 4.379                  .956
24             Jim Hardin    1968-08-19 BAL CAL  W 1-0     SHO W  9.0  2 0  0  0  8  0           0        91 29 28  0  0   0   0  1  0   0  0  1  0  0  0 0.00  0.666 3.249                 1.307
25           Dave McNally    1964-10-01 BAL WSA  W 2-0     SHO W  9.0  1 0  0  3  9  0           0        91 30 26  1  0   0   0  1  0   1  0  0  0  0  1 0.00  0.535 4.066                 1.038

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Can_of_corn Hangout Grand Counsel

Can_of_corn

Posted
Posted
13 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

The recent guys get the strikeouts, but the old guys got to pitch extra innings.  Although they'd have probably been better off if they didn't...

Tom Tango has a basic pitch count estimator, and by that Jerry Walker threw close to 200 pitches in his 16-inning start.

Sounds like Bundy in high school.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
DrungoHazewood Hangout Grand Counsel

DrungoHazewood

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, Eric-OH said:

If 87 is that good, I think good ol Daniel Cabrera had a pair of them to add to the list.  

Cabrera had five starts of at least an 80: 

                                                                                                                                                                           
Rk             Date  Tm Opp   Rslt  AppDec  IP  H R ER BB SO HR UER Pit Str GSc IR IS BF AB 2B 3B IBB HBP SH SF GDP SB CS PO BK WP  ERA    WPA   RE24   aLI DFS(DK) DFS(FD)
1        2006-09-28 BAL NYY  W 7-1    CG W 9.0  1 1  0  2  5  0   1 106  71        86 30 28  0  0   0   0  0  0   3  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.274  4.024                  .512
                                                                                                                                                                           
2        2006-08-19 BAL TOR W 15-0   SHO W 9.0  5 0  0  2 10  0   0 121  78        85 33 31  0  0   0   0  0  0   1  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.109  4.923                  .298
3        2005-05-09 BAL MIN  W 3-0  GS-8 W 8.0  3 0  0  2 11  0   0 110  71        85 29 27  0  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.436  4.179                 1.013
                                                                                                                                                                           
4        2008-05-08 BAL KCR  W 4-1    CG W 9.0  3 1  1  1  7  0   0 116  76        83 31 30  1  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  1 1.00  0.386  3.702                  .719
5        2004-06-25 BAL ATL  W 5-0   SHO W 9.0  4 0  0  2  6  0   0 102  61        83 31 29  0  0   0   0  0  0   2  0  0  0  0  0 0.00  0.477  4.954                  .921

But also five starts under 20: 

151      2007-09-29 BAL NYY L 10-11      GS-4 L 3.0 10  7  6  1  1  0   1  71  42        13 20 19  2  0   0   0  0  0   0  0  0  0  0  0 18.00 -0.394 -4.729                 1.022
                                                                                                                                                                                  
152      2008-08-24 BAL NYY   L 7-8        GS-4 3.2  9  7  7  3  0  1   0  95  49        12 24 19  3  0   0   1  0  1   0  0  0  0  0  0 17.18 -0.442 -5.182                 1.019
153      2004-07-25 BAL MIN   L 4-8      GS-6 L 5.0 11  8  8  1  0  2   0  99  61        12 27 25  2  0   0   0  0  1   0  2  0  0  0  1 14.40 -0.405 -5.248                  .785
                                                                                                                                                                                  
154      2007-09-12 BAL LAA  L 6-18      GS-5 L 4.1  9 10  8  4  5  1   2 105  62        10 27 22  1  0   0   0  0  1   1  4  0  0  0  0 16.62 -0.410 -6.189                  .559
                                                                                                                                                                                  
155      2004-08-21 BAL TOR  L 4-10      GS-3 L 2.1  8  8  8  2  2  1   0  57  30         9 18 13  2  0   0   1  0  2   0  1  0  0  0  0 30.86 -0.394 -6.916                  .861

Interestingly, Cabrera had 23 starts with five or more walks, but none of them had a game score below 41.  In fact his all time high in walks in a start was nine, and he got a game score of 56 because he only allowed one run and struck out 10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites
Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

Posted
Posted
15 hours ago, tntoriole said:

Since Ks are  the only measure this guy used to determine “best” pitching performance.  Not the context of the game as to important or not or whether it was against a quality opponent or not. 

 When Erik Bedard pitched a complete game against the Texas Rangers in 2007 with 15 strikeouts, Palmer's broadcasting partner Gary Thorne asked rhetorically, "Have you ever seen a better pitched game than that?" To which Palmer replied, "Well, I did throw a no-hitter."

 

I’d question whether Palmer meant the remark seriously.     But in any event, give me Bedard or Mussina’s game any day.   

Worth noting: three of Palmer’s six walks came in the 9th inning.    
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites
tntoriole Hangout Grand Counsel

tntoriole

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, Frobby said:

I’d question whether Palmer meant the remark seriously.     But in any event, give me Bedard or Mussina’s game any day.   

Worth noting: three of Palmer’s six walks came in the 9th inning.    
 

Personally and aesthetically,  I will take the no hitters or a World Series or playoff win as alltime great  i.e Cuellar, Bunker, Palmer, McNally, Boddicker, McGregor as opposed to a 2 hitter in a meaningless game in Texas...but, each to their own.  And  I don’t know if it was tongue in cheek...Jim is pretty proud of his achievements, usually. 

Also worth noting in that ninth inning is that Reggie Jackson, who had already hit 42 home runs, was walked for the third time by Palmer...pitching around him the whole game. 

He also walked Dick Green and Tommy Reynolds with two outs...maybe not intentionally but making them swing ONLY at his pitch and  also knowing that Larry Haney, ex Oriole backup and weak hitter, was waiting beyond them for the third out.   Palmer was perhaps the best Oriole pitcher I have ever seen at having a plan for every hitter, every situation and knowing what his strengths were in that matchup. 

Oh, and Jim also had two hits and a walk, including a double and drove in a run and scored a run.  And threw 142 pitches...let’s see the modern guys do that regularly.

But I did truly enjoy Bedard and Mussina too...

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
 Share
Go to topic listing


  • Posts

    • survivedc
      2023 vs 2024 Player WAR & 2025 Opportunities

      By survivedc · Posted

      I’m not so sure the bolded part is true. I think a lot of that last bit can have to do with small skills: situational hitting/running, above average play in close games, generally things that can be boiled down to “luck.” I didn’t see this years team as having a major talent discrepancy from the 2023 version.
    • eddie83
      2023 vs 2024 Player WAR & 2025 Opportunities

      By eddie83 · Posted

      As great as Gunnar is can’t assume he matches last year. That said I like the odds of the team as a whole matching what we did. 
    • Sports Guy
      2023 vs 2024 Player WAR & 2025 Opportunities

      By Sports Guy · Posted

      The real improvement of this team will come from within.    The 3-5 players they bring in from outside the org will supplement the roster…maybe put it over the top but the real improvement will come from those already in the org.
    • eddie83
      2023 vs 2024 Player WAR & 2025 Opportunities

      By eddie83 · Posted

      Yeah. -Would love to keep Burnes but I seriously doubt it. -I have a lot of faith in Adley.  - Holliday has huge ceiling even if he isn’t ready to be elite.  - doesn’t always work this way but the better your closer is tends to help rest of pen 
    • Too Tall
      2023 vs 2024 Player WAR & 2025 Opportunities

      By Too Tall · Posted

      Nice OP. Thanks for the effort. Like the chart. Surprised it hasn't received much response. You sum up a lot of what I hope for as well. I'd add: I think a full - healty year of Westy will be even more valuable. I think Gunnar has even more in the tank. I want - hope that Holliday can develop into the lead off hitter and OBP table setter we need. And, I so want Cowser to cut down on strike outs and continue to develop as a professional hitter. I think he has the potential to cover for the loss of Santander while Big K develops on the right side. A lot to hope for but I believe these youngsters have a lot of potential yet to tap. And oh yes - I want Mayo to make Roy and all of us proud! Thanks again for the effort! I look at pitching as if we have a base. I agree with your points 1 and 2.
    • Just Regular
      Other teams playoffs game thread

      By Just Regular · Posted

      Postgame Pedro Martinez and Dusty Baker critiquing Clase tripling up on his weaker pitch before the Carpenter heroics. 78% cutters on the season for Clase - the key PA went cutter-cutter-cutter-slider-slider-slider.
    • Aristotelian
      2023 vs 2024 Player WAR & 2025 Opportunities

      By Aristotelian · Posted

      Full season of Eflin replaces at least some of Burnes. Anyone hoping for a Burnes replacement is going to be disappointed IMO. Replacing Kimbrel -1.1 WAR with Bautista should be a 3 WAR gain.  I agree we shouldn't count on Adley for 5-6 WAR. Hopefully he is good for 3-4.  I honestly have no idea what Elias will do. We are "good not great" just about everywhere on the roster except shortstop. We could probably do nothing and still win 80 games, maybe even 90. The problem is it gets extremely costly to add marginal talent to get from 90 to 100.

  • Popular Contributors

×
×
  • Create New...