Orioles' last 5 tool player?

[Redskins Rick]

7 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

There have been 24 players with 31 to 41 rWAR through age 26.  17 of them (71%) are in the Hall.

The ones not in the Hall are:
Vada Pinson (I think he had back problems, declined badly in late 20s/early 30s)
Cesar Cedeno (Fell apart in late 20s)
Sherry Magee (Could be in the Hall, but isn't)
John McGraw (Was done by 30, probably because of 19th century diseases like typhoid)
Jim Fregosi (Injured?  Didn't play a full season after 29)
Joe Jackson (banned for throwing World Series)
Dick Allen (personality and other problems that kind of put Manny to shame)

I thought Vada had fallen victim to Heorin or Coke habit? (Maybe because of the back)

I dont think Manny has had too many on the field problems, but not sure, how many more his career can take, without impacting the writers opinion of him and HOF worthlessness.

 

 

[DrungoHazewood]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

I thought 2013, he set a record for double in the MLB, my bad. Guess he just led the AL in doubles that season with 51.

Yea, Earl Webb is still safe.

That record hasn't been seriously approached very often.  Every once in a while someone will put up over 30 in half a season, but invariably they fall way off the pace.  Nobody has hit 60 doubles in a season since the 30s.  Helton came close in 2000.  And (bizarrely, I didn't know about this) Nicholas Castellanos had 58 laste year, the only person in the top 75 who switched teams in mid-season.

The highest doubles rates for years are 1930, 2007, 2006, 2008, 1932, and 2004.  They've been off a bit the last 10 years but are still in the top ~25 seasons of all time.  But still, nobody's seriously challenged Webb, who was a minor league star in the independent high minors of the 1920s and didn't have a full MLB season until he was almost 30.

The professional record is 100, by Lyman Lamb of Tulsa in the Western League in 1924.  I believe that's the record by 25 doubles, no one else in any league ever hit more than 75 doubles in a season.  The preceding two years Lamb hit 68 and 71.  In 54 MLB games he doubled 11 times.

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, Redskins Rick said:

I thought Vada had fallen victim to Heorin or Coke habit? (Maybe because of the back)

I dont think Manny has had too many on the field problems, but not sure, how many more his career can take, without impacting the writers opinion of him and HOF worthlessness.

 

 

Manny's numbers comp to Adrian Beltre's to this point in their careers.  I don't think anyone pegged Beltre to be a HoF player through his age 26 season.  He hadn't made an All Star game but was a runner up for MVP one season.  

(and to pat myself on the back, Adrian Beltre is Manny's #1 comp, I did this research before I looked).

So Manny has some work to do...he'll have to play awhile, get some more GGs, become known as a generational defender and put up some big round counting numbers.  And become beloved.  Adrian Beltre became a beloved player in his later years.  Manny, most people think of him as a villain of sorts.  If he does all that, he can be a HoFer.

[Redskins Rick]

5 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Manny's numbers comp to Adrian Beltre's to this point in their careers.  I don't think anyone pegged Beltre to be a HoF player through his age 26 season.  He hadn't made an All Star game but was a runner up for MVP one season.  

(and to pat myself on the back, Adrian Beltre is Manny's #1 comp, I did this research before I looked).

So Manny has some work to do...he'll have to play awhile, get some more GGs, become known as a generational defender and put up some big round counting numbers.  And become beloved.  Adrian Beltre became a beloved player in his later years.  Manny, most people think of him as a villain of sorts.  If he does all that, he can be a HoFer.

Beltre (and I like him) is not the glove Manny is.

Manny is gone to other teams, and was still making the ESPN highlights for his glove, but not as much.

I think his best position is 3rd, and at that position could be argued as the best defender at 3rd. You cant make that argument about Manny at SS. Not that he is Jeter there.

Beltrie is sure to be in the HOF, with his career WAR.

Manny has a solid start on the path to HOF, and if he had run off a few more 7.3s like he was when he was in Baltimore. He would be a shoe in.

 

[Moose Milligan]

2 minutes ago, Redskins Rick said:

Beltre (and I like him) is not the glove Manny is.

Manny is gone to other teams, and was still making the ESPN highlights for his glove, but not as much.

I think his best position is 3rd, and at that position could be argued as the best defender at 3rd. You cant make that argument about Manny at SS. Not that he is Jeter there.

Beltrie is sure to be in the HOF, with his career WAR.

Manny has a solid start on the path to HOF, and if he had run off a few more 7.3s like he was when he was in Baltimore. He would be a shoe in.

 

Well, remains to be seen.  I hope Manny sticks at 3rd, I think he will with the emergence of Tatis Jr.  

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, Moose Milligan said:

Well, remains to be seen.  I hope Manny sticks at 3rd, I think he will with the emergence of Tatis Jr.  

Agree, time will tell, if they can get their handle around this thing, and get this game back on the field.

[Redskins Rick]

1 hour ago, eddie83 said:

I looked up Arod. He also hit over 50 doubles his age 20 season. I thought he had some kind of a record also. 

Nah, cant stand the clown, but I will take your word on that.

[DrungoHazewood]

20 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

Manny's numbers comp to Adrian Beltre's to this point in their careers.  I don't think anyone pegged Beltre to be a HoF player through his age 26 season.  He hadn't made an All Star game but was a runner up for MVP one season.  

(and to pat myself on the back, Adrian Beltre is Manny's #1 comp, I did this research before I looked).

So Manny has some work to do...he'll have to play awhile, get some more GGs, become known as a generational defender and put up some big round counting numbers.  And become beloved.  Adrian Beltre became a beloved player in his later years.  Manny, most people think of him as a villain of sorts.  If he does all that, he can be a HoFer.

The biggest difference between Manny and Beltre at 26 is that Manny has been pretty consistent, while Beltre was a below-average hitter in five of his first eight seasons.  But then he had that... interesting... walk year where his OPS went up .300 points in 2004.  Through 26 Manny had four 5-win seasons, Beltre one.

Beltre also had a unusual age 31-37 peak, so I'm not sure if the comp really means much.  Adrian Beltre's career looks like one of those players who debuted in 1913 or 1983, and was in mid-career when the balls/players/whatever went nuts.   But, strangely, offenses were going down as he both aged and got better.

[DrungoHazewood]

20 hours ago, Redskins Rick said:

Beltrie is sure to be in the HOF, with his career WAR.

I'm going to pick a little nit here.  Beltre will go to the Hall because he was one of the best third basemen in baseball for 20 years, he won gold gloves, he got MVP votes, he played on five postseason teams, he led the league in hits, doubles and homers. He's one of the five, certainly 10 best third basemen of all time.  And most of that is reflected in very good seasonal and career WAR totals. 

[Redskins Rick]

28 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'm going to pick a little nit here.  Beltre will go to the Hall because he was one of the best third basemen in baseball for 20 years, he won gold gloves, he got MVP votes, he played on five postseason teams, he led the league in hits, doubles and homers. He's one of the five, certainly 10 best third basemen of all time.  And most of that is reflected in very good seasonal and career WAR totals. 

Your correct on all counts. Not nit picking on your part, I just didnt elaborate my statement and it look like i was just saying career WAR would get him in.

[panick]

On 6/1/2020 at 6:09 AM, Redskins Rick said:

You dont set American League records for doubles, if you dont hustle and run.

 

Tell that to the Dodgers.

After he did not run hard after he hit a ball he thought was a home run, he admitted he would never be "Charley Hustle". And if you are hitting balls off of the outfield walls, you don't really have to hustle much to get to second base.

[Can_of_corn]

13 minutes ago, panick said:

 

Tell that to the Dodgers.

After he did not run hard after he hit a ball he thought was a home run, he admitted he would never be "Charley Hustle". And if you are hitting balls off of the outfield walls, you don't really have to hustle much to get to second base.

Tell that to Ernie Lombardi's ghost.

[DrungoHazewood]

39 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Tell that to Ernie Lombardi's ghost.

But that was in the 1930s, when not hustling was a funny story that someone would tell at an Moose Lodge roast.  Not like today when it's serious as a heart attack.

[Babkins]

3 hours ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I'm going to pick a little nit here.  Beltre will go to the Hall because he was one of the best third basemen in baseball for 20 years, he won gold gloves, he got MVP votes, he played on five postseason teams, he led the league in hits, doubles and homers. He's one of the five, certainly 10 best third basemen of all time.  And most of that is reflected in very good seasonal and career WAR totals. 

Our old friend Carl Ripken would say you're underrating him. Sorry, Brooksie.

[Redskins Rick]

1 minute ago, DrungoHazewood said:

But that was in the 1930s, when not hustling was a funny story that someone would tell at an Moose Lodge roast.  Not like today when it's serious as a heart attack.

But, Corn is the only one here old enough to know that first hand.