My Tampa Bay Rays obsession. Why? And what it means to the O's.

[wildcard]

Tampa has broken the code on the how to win versus the big spending clubs.   They led the AL with 100 wins and a payroll of 77M in 2021.  How did they do it?

1. When many think of Tampa they think of selling their talent at peak value for prospects.  And that is true but it not the only thing that makes them a winner.

2.  In 2021 Tampa led the league in reliever innings with 703 IP and also led the league in reliever ERA with a 3.24 ERA.   

3.   Tampa starters were 14th in innings pitched in 2021.  Only the O's had fewer.   Their starters had a 4.08 ERA with was 6th in the AL. Normally a team with 100 wins has several stud starters.  Tampa had 1/2 of one.  Glasnow who was injured half way through the season.

4.  Tampa does not push all its starters to go 5 innings.   They often pulled their young starter after 4 or so innings.  Remember how Buck always tried to squeeze another out from his starters.  Not Kevin Cash.  He sometimes pulled his young starters even if they are they have given up one or zero runs.  

5.  They employed Openers and Bulk relievers (which are really starters) in 19 games.  Mostly against teams in the AL East. This is so not to have the starter face the top of the lineup too many times.

6. For most of the season relievers were not used on back to back days.

7. Relievers routinely went less then  2 innings.  There were times when they went more but it was not the norm.

8. Tampa used 39 pitchers so they used the AAA pitchers.

So what does all this mean to the O's.   Relievers are cheaper then starters normally.   The O's can afford to improve their relievers to become competitive.  The O's are going to have a lot of young starters.  Following the Tampa model might help  make them  successful by pitching them less innings per start.  I could see Hyde allowing Means and Lyles  pitch deep into games but limiting the innings per game for the young starters.

I think Elias is smart.  He knows much more about why Tampa won 100 games with a low payroll then I do.   I don't think its a reach to think he is considering employing some of these elements.

 

[SouthRider]

Interesting points.  I wonder how Rays' players did post-Tampa compared to how they fared with the Rays organization.  Seems like most of the guys they developed did pretty well elsewhere when employed by non-Rays teams.   If this is true, it would suggest your described usage is more beneficial to the development years of the player.  That kind of reminds me of how the old O's used to use pitchers in Weaver's day.   Pitchers were eased into the rotation by building up their experience in the pen.  Guys like Flanagan, McGregor, Ed Farmer (I don't know why I thought of him).  Seems like a better approach than throwing Dean Kremer out there for maximum innings at an ERA of 7.55.

[Can_of_corn]

Did you know that.

1. You can do this.
2. That it makes lists easier to read
3. It keeps some of your bullets from having ) instead of .

As I've said before if Elias tries to copy any other plan for success he's going to fail.  He need to be proactive.  You aren't going to beat the Rays by copying them.

[jabba72]

You spelled it out pretty well. This would be the easiest trend for the O's (and every other team) to emulate since we dont exactly have many established starters.  Wether Hyde and Elias see it the same way is another story. Insert image from URL

[jabba72]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Did you know that.

1. You can do this.
2. That it makes lists easier to read
3. It keeps some of your bullets from having ) instead of .

As I've said before if Elias tries to copy any other plan for success he's going to fail.  He need to be proactive.  You aren't going to beat the Rays by copying them.

If it works in the AL East why not try and copy them? Its a cheap method as well. Bullpen arms are dime a dozen. The easiest players to acquire. Its worth further exploring this method rather than trying to go 5 innings with Lopez every time he starts.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

You spelled it out pretty well. This would be the easiest trend for the O's (and every other team) to emulate since we dont exactly have many established starters.  Wether Hyde and Elias see it the same way is another story. Insert image from URL

Some of us have been advocating for limiting the exposure for starting pitchers for a long time.  The idea of openers was also around as a concept before Tampa started employing them.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, jabba72 said:

If it works in the AL East why not try and copy them? Its a cheap method as well. Bullpen arms are dime a dozen. The easiest players to acquire. Its worth further exploring this method rather than trying to go 5 innings with Lopez every time he starts.

Because you are also going to have the Red Sox, Yankees and Blue Jays taking what they can from the Rays' approach.  You need a new edge.

Now that doesn't mean that I don't agree with the overall concepts of what the Rays are doing.  I've been on board for some of this stuff for a decade.

[RZNJ]

51 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Did you know that.

1. You can do this.
2. That it makes lists easier to read
3. It keeps some of your bullets from having ) instead of .

As I've said before if Elias tries to copy any other plan for success he's going to fail.  He need to be proactive.  You aren't going to beat the Rays by copying them.

So, no team can win unless they re-invent the wheel?   You still have to have good players.  The question is how do you get the most out of what you've got.   You can copy other teams and beat them.  It's been happening for 100 years.  

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

 

1. When many think of Tampa they think of selling their talent at peak value for prospects.  And that is true but it not the only thing that makes them a winner.

 

 

There are many Orioles fans who wanted to trade Manny Machado earlier than his walk year because it became apparent there was no chance of him signing with the Orioles. I was also in favor of at least listening to offers on Britton after his 2016 season. Selling high on a relief pitcher is usually the right move. 

[wildcard]

9. Tampa used veteran starters which were key when Glasnow was injured.  At that point the team went into a mini slump but these two guys helped right the ship.  

Rich Hill, (40) for 2m traded at the deadline for 23 year old Matthew Dyer

Michael Wacha, (30) for 3m.  FA after the season.

------------

Tampa has signed Corey Kluber (36) for 2022 for 8m.

[Can_of_corn]

19 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

So, no team can win unless they re-invent the wheel?   You still have to have good players.  The question is how do you get the most out of what you've got.   You can copy other teams and beat them.  It's been happening for 100 years.  

I think that Baltimore is not going to be able to be able to sustain success in the AL East this decade if they do not innovate.

 

[Sports Guy]

1 hour ago, Can_of_corn said:

Did you know that.

1. You can do this.
2. That it makes lists easier to read
3. It keeps some of your bullets from having ) instead of .

As I've said before if Elias tries to copy any other plan for success he's going to fail.  He need to be proactive.  You aren't going to beat the Rays by copying them.

I don’t think you can do this on your phone.  My doesn’t give me that listing option but I guess everyone should make sure it’s easy on you!

[Sports Guy]

Tampa competes with the big boys because they are smart, because they draft and develop well and because they don’t get tied to fan favorites and generally let guys go a year early rather than a year too late.

They have done a good job of trading young guys with some hype that they didn’t pan out. 

Yes, they have figured out some things that are undervalued…but ultimately, they are just really smart and play very good, fundamentally sound baseball.  That isn’t a team that normally beats itself with errors, baserunning misrskes and things like that.

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I don’t think you can do this on your phone.  My doesn’t give me that listing option but I guess everyone should make sure it’s easy on you!

I'm not surprised you'd be opposed to something that makes things easier for others.

[Sports Guy]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I'm not surprised you'd be opposed to something that makes things easier for others.

What he did was fine.  Zero issues reading or understanding it.  That’s a you problem, not a we problem.