Mateo League Leader in Defensive WAR

[eddie83]

7 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

Some.  I think it's pretty well documented that LF in Fenway depresses putouts.  Richie Ashburn the most impressive PO totals of any CFer ever, and while he was very good a lot of that was park illusion because Shibe Park was 468' to center. Also Robin Roberts was a big flyball pitcher.

I think Statcast is better at accounting for park than TZ and similar.

Betts played in a big RF in Fenway. Ton of ground to cover there. Fenway RF and LF are such opposites. 

[Moose Milligan]

15 minutes ago, DrungoHazewood said:

I think Hernandez was a great defensive first baseman, and Eddie was very good.  But if either of them had been great defensive baseball players they'd have been center fielders or shortstops.

Hernandez was hurt by being left-handed. There's a bias against lefty fielders, in that Hernandez wasn't allowed to play 2B/SS/3B (probably for fairly good reason), so he couldn't have the defensive value of a similarly-talented righty.  As good as he was at first, it's basically playing third without the requirement for an arm.  1B/3B have the fewest meaningful plays on the diamond, but at first that's masked in the PO numbers by hundreds of times you catch a routine ball letter high on a throw from someone else.

That's a great explanation but from what I can tell the defensive metrics don't take into account that Hernandez played 1B different/better than anyone else.  I agree with your overall stance that if he was a truly great defensive player he'd have been a CF or SS...but that also dings Hernandez on his athleticism, I suppose.  Not everyone can play SS or CF, but that doesn't mean you can't be a tremendous fielder.

Like, do the defensive metrics take into consideration what he does in this video at 1:12?

 

 

[Sports Guy]

15 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

That's a great explanation but from what I can tell the defensive metrics don't take into account that Hernandez played 1B different/better than anyone else.  I agree with your overall stance that if he was a truly great defensive player he'd have been a CF or SS...but that also dings Hernandez on his athleticism, I suppose.  Not everyone can play SS or CF, but that doesn't mean you can't be a tremendous fielder.

Like, do the defensive metrics take into consideration what he does in this video at 1:12?

 

 

And what about the “magic loogy”.  Where is the extra credit for that?

[DrungoHazewood]

11 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

That's a great explanation but from what I can tell the defensive metrics don't take into account that Hernandez played 1B different/better than anyone else.  I agree with your overall stance that if he was a truly great defensive player he'd have been a CF or SS...but that also dings Hernandez on his athleticism, I suppose.  Not everyone can play SS or CF, but that doesn't mean you can't be a tremendous fielder.

Like, do the defensive metrics take into consideration what he does in this video at 1:12?

 

 

I don't want to sound flippant, but I don't care how Keith Hernandez played first base.  I care about how many outs he made above and beyond an average first baseman. If he was that magical he should have way more context-adjusted PO/A than anyone else at first. His impact shows up in the numbers, but it's not like he was Babe Ruth out-homering every other team in the league.

Hernandez made 0.22 plays/game more than an average 1B.  If he was regularly making plays nobody had ever seen before I'd think that would show up somewhere.

[Three Run Homer]

Bumping because Mateo made a spectacular play in the top of the 7th, a career-highlight type of play where he went deep into the hole, threw over his shoulder and somehow beat the runner by a half step.  If you didn't watch the game today, it's definitely worth finding it on the highlight reel.  

[NelsonCruuuuuz]

17 minutes ago, Three Run Homer said:

Bumping because Mateo made a spectacular play in the top of the 7th, a career-highlight type of play where he went deep into the hole, threw over his shoulder and somehow beat the runner by a half step.  If you didn't watch the game today, it's definitely worth finding it on the highlight reel.  

MLB tweeted the play!

https://twitter.com/mlb/status/1533208641574211584?s=21&t=8vi-tkIZ61Opc-q-d5JXaQ

[RZNJ]

An amazing play.  Impressive!

[LA2]

On 6/1/2022 at 12:05 PM, Moose Milligan said:

That's a great explanation but from what I can tell the defensive metrics don't take into account that Hernandez played 1B different/better than anyone else.  I agree with your overall stance that if he was a truly great defensive player he'd have been a CF or SS...but that also dings Hernandez on his athleticism, I suppose.  Not everyone can play SS or CF, but that doesn't mean you can't be a tremendous fielder.

Like, do the defensive metrics take into consideration what he does in this video at 1:12?

 

 

Thanks--really enjoyed watching those.

[LA2]

19 hours ago, NelsonCruuuuuz said:

MLB tweeted the play!

https://twitter.com/mlb/status/1533208641574211584?s=21&t=8vi-tkIZ61Opc-q-d5JXaQ

So cool to witness Mateo developing into a very good SS. He's seized the opportunity that a weak depth chart and Elias's long march back to Oriole respectability have offered him.

I even think there's still room for defensive improvement: he has a great arm and range, but his footwork needs to get better. Might be able to save a half- or even whole step now and then on difficult plays.

[Jammer7]

Mateo has been really good all year. He and Odor have great chemistry out there. I have no doubt that Odor has helped him to mature and feel comfortable. Odor seems rejuvenated as well. 

[yark14]

3 hours ago, LA2 said:

So cool to witness Mateo developing into a very good SS. He's seized the opportunity that a weak depth chart and Elias's long march back to Oriole respectability have offered him.

I even think there's still room for defensive improvement: he has a great arm and range, but his footwork still needs to get better. Might be able to save a half- or even whole step now and then on difficult plays.

There is a chemistry they have for sure.  Often times they look like kids playing in the sandlot and having the time of their lives.  Baseball needs more of that.

[LA2]

15 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

Mateo has been really good all year. He and Odor have great chemistry out there. I have no doubt that Odor has helped him to mature and feel comfortable. Odor seems rejuvenated as well. 

Sometimes I have to remind myself that he is only 28 years old (28.33 to be exact). He started playing full-time when he was only 20 (417 PAs in 2014) and so he seems older because he's been around so long.

Surveying Odor's career stats, he hasn't been close to 100 OPS+ since 2018 and surpassed it (narrowly) in only his second and third years (2015-2016). He must overvalue his own foot speed because there were seasons where he tried a lot of steals but got caught often, e.g. 12 SB in 24 Attempts in 2018 and 11/20 in 2019. He gets plunked a lot (twice in the top ten HBP) although, of course, he's known sometimes to punch back.

[Just Regular]

Rougned Odor and Tyler Wells were both born in 1994.

[maybenxtyr]

6 hours ago, Just Regular said:

Rougned Odor and Tyler Wells were both born in 1994.

That was the year I graduated HS. Thank you...now I feel old.

[Frobby]

On 6/1/2022 at 12:05 PM, Moose Milligan said:

That's a great explanation but from what I can tell the defensive metrics don't take into account that Hernandez played 1B different/better than anyone else.  

Why do you say that the metrics don’t take into account how well he played his position?   Sure they do.  Here’s a list of Total Zone Runs for 1B.   Look who’s no 1. 
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/tz_runs_total_1b_career.shtml.  You look at Hernandez’s rWAR components and he had Rfield of 117, meaning he was 117 runs better than an average 1B would have been.