07/26/22 Roster Moves: Terrin Vavra is called up from Norfolk (MLB debut) and Arauz to the IL

[forphase1]

1 hour ago, spleen1015 said:

If you care about making the playoffs this year, Vavra should be playing since it looks like he's better than Odor.

If you care about the future, Vavra should be playing since he needs the experience. Why call him up, not play him, taking AAA AB away from him?

Exactly.  

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, foxfield said:

The term is we can agree to disagree.  And of course you can.  But this is a bad look for you.  Not because it is condescending, but because it looks petty and beneath you.  Honestly, it comes across as bitter, not at the poster, not at the player, but at Oriole management for how they treat you.  (Which in my opinion has been poor and one in which I have personally written to the O's to correct.)

I am not a fan of Odor, and I do not expect to see him beyond this year if that long.  But there are things that are being contributed that have nothing to do with the fact that he has been, except for a few occasional big swings at big times, almost an automatic out.  His impact on the field with Mateo for example.

But you do not have to drink kool-aid or be a fan boy to see that he has helped make the Oriole defense a huge part of the surprising success that this season has become.  We can all question if any of this would be upset or knocked off track by jettisoning Odor in favor of any of the prospects that are ready or near ready.  And I am certainly not in favor of locking up Odor in any way.  I think when Vavra or any other second baseman is in the dugout.  What Hyde is telling that kid, is that the hitting portion for them, will come.  But the day they step on the field, they simply have to play the glove and have to turn the double play.  Go 3-3, still gotta make the plays.  0-4 with 4Ks...you gotta make the plays.

The problem is, everyone wants the Orioles to make these moves on their timetable.  Start Adley day 1 (Which he might/or might not have without the minor injury). Bring up Grayson, Hall and others asap.  Many people also saw the Orioles tanking right through the end of 2022 based on the opening day lineup and the fact that none of the prospects were coming north to begin their apprenticeships. 

Here is a fact.  The Orioles have outperformed almost every expectation, in their first year focusing on ML performance by making sure the guys they put in position understand what is expected and what role they need to play for the team to be successful.  Some of the pieces they have plugged in, like Mateo, have improved to the point that they are no longer being discussed as placeholders but potential keepers.  That isn't and wont be the case for Odor.

I'm ready for Odor to be replaced, and I think he will be.  But I don't fret at all that he is in the lineup yesterday, or tomorrow.  He will be replaced when Elias wants him to be replaced.  And I am absolutely 100% certain, that this is not a Hyde is a veteran favoring guy as being the reason that Odor is in the lineup.  This isn't Buck and DD.  IF Hyde starts bucking what Elias wants, he will find his exit papers quickly in hand.

So yes, we can agree to disagree about the daily value of one Rougned Odor and if that is the case, then let's just leave it at that.  When one of the highest respected people here politely and respectfully tell you that you are out of line, perhaps take it to heart.  It isn't about the agreement or disagreement as to the value of Odor.  He will be gone soon enough.

Hopefully, because of you, we will all still be here to celebrate.

 

I appreciate the note and can see your point. I was more busting balls with that term more than anything. I respect @wildcard even when I disagree with him because I know he's a great fan of the Orioles and supporter of the site. So if he or others feel I was being disrespectful then I apologize. 

As for Odor, I really don't disagree all that much though the stats tells us otherwise when he plays. the team is 39-47 when he plays and 10-2 when he doesn't. Perhaps that's coincidence, but the fact that he's either replacement level player or below replacement level player by every metric leads me to believe the team is better without him.

 Whether Vavra is the answer is probably the bigger question. I've seen him play 2B and came away feeling that he's going to make the every day play, but his arm and hands will limit his effectiveness overall. Joey Ortiz is a fantastic 2B by the way, probably the best in the system when he plays there.

As for Hyde, I really don't know how much he has control over his lineup or who plays, but he made some comments about Vavra that made me think he was not going to play much and I don't think that's good for a guy who is a legitimate major league prospect. 

At the end of the day, the the fact that Vavra made 19 starts in the outfield and 22 starts at 2B, probably says that they've evaluated him at second base and feel he's not good enough to play there everyday. Now, I really may not disagree, but when you are running out a replacement level player, why not try the prospect out if you bring him up rather than let him ride the pine. 

Besides, maybe Odor's veteranosity is more powerful on the bench since the team is 10-2 without him?

 

[Tony-OH]

15 hours ago, Jammer7 said:

To your point, however, there comes a time when that player’s effectiveness cannot justify his weak production. Perhaps they are at that time. 

 

Honestly, that's the real point in all of this. It's just time IMHO.

[Tony-OH]

3 hours ago, MurphDogg said:

Vavra's minor league OPS vs. lefties the last 3 seasons have been .701, .500 (45 plate appearances, as he was hurt most of 2021), and .696.

Odor's career MLB OPS vs. lefties is .689 (.728 against righties).

I think Odor gives them a beter chance to win against MLB lefties at this point. It is unfortunate that the Rays have started lefties in two of the three games against the O's since Vavra came up, and I agree that Vavra should have started last night, but I don't think sitting Vavra today against a lefty is a bad call.

I agree. Starting Vavra against a good lefty is probably not fair. Last night should have been his debut, but what's done is done. But knowing who was probably starting, why didn't they  bring up Martin instead of Vavra? He could have started at 2B today. 

This entire roster move is a headscratcher to me.

[interloper]

Alright, I'm attempting to slowly back away from the rage ledge about the Vavra thing. I know he'll get his moment eventually. And I have enjoyed Odor's presence on this team. But we have to acknowledge that his time is up pretty soon as a starting 2B. 

We have been asked to be very patient as fans the last few years and so it just puts me over the edge a little as we sit here on July 28 waiting for any big prospect not named Adley to finally make an impact on this team. Injuries have derailed Grayson and Bradish. Stowers and Vavra have been given the cup of coffee treatment. Guys like Vespi have been yo-yo'd a bit. Westburg and Henderson are torching AAA but remain in a holding pattern. Hall is ready but it's unclear how he's even being used now. 

It's a lot! And it only gets more frustrating the closer all these guys get and the later in the season it gets. 

But I'm just going to do dig deep and find some more patience and trust the process. 

[wildcard]

18 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

I appreciate the note and can see your point. I was more busting balls with that term more than anything. I respect @wildcard even when I disagree with him because I know he's a great fan of the Orioles and supporter of the site. So if he or others feel I was being disrespectful then I apologize. 

As for Odor, I really don't disagree all that much though the stats tells us otherwise when he plays. the team is 39-47 when he plays and 10-2 when he doesn't. Perhaps that's coincidence, but the fact that he's either replacement level player or below replacement level player by every metric leads me to believe the team is better without him.

 Whether Vavra is the answer is probably the bigger question. I've seen him play 2B and came away feeling that he's going to make the every day play, but his arm and hands will limit his effectiveness overall. Joey Ortiz is a fantastic 2B by the way, probably the best in the system when he plays there.

As for Hyde, I really don't know how much he has control over his lineup or who plays, but he made some comments about Vavra that made me think he was not going to play much and I don't think that's good for a guy who is a legitimate major league prospect. 

At the end of the day, the the fact that Vavra made 19 starts in the outfield and 22 starts at 2B, probably says that they've evaluated him at second base and feel he's not good enough to play there everyday. Now, I really may not disagree, but when you are running out a replacement level player, why not try the prospect out if you bring him up rather than let him ride the pine. 

Besides, maybe Odor's veteranosity is more powerful on the bench since the team is 10-2 without him?

 

We're good.   I always respect your opinion even when we don't agree.

[Tony-OH]

4 minutes ago, interloper said:

Alright, I'm attempting to slowly back away from the rage ledge about the Vavra thing. I know he'll get his moment eventually. And I have enjoyed Odor's presence on this team. But we have to acknowledge that his time is up pretty soon as a starting 2B. 

We have been asked to be very patient as fans the last few years and so it just puts me over the edge a little as we sit here on July 28 waiting for any big prospect not named Adley to finally make an impact on this team. Injuries have derailed Grayson and Bradish. Stowers and Vavra have been given the cup of coffee treatment. Guys like Vespi have been yo-yo'd a bit. Westburg and Henderson are torching AAA but remain in a holding pattern. Hall is ready but it's unclear how he's even being used now. 

It's a lot! And it only gets more frustrating the closer all these guys get and the later in the season it gets. 

But I'm just going to do dig deep and find some more patience and trust the process. 

Just for some context, Westburg has a .628 OPS over his last 91 PAs so he's actually not very hot. 

I understand your frustration and I don't think this team should be starting Nevin or Odor any longer. Neither are effective major league players. Stowers will probably get recalled when Mancini or Santander are moved.

This is a team that should be trying to win every game and right now, they have a hole at 2B and no real backup 3B for Urias. If Westburg was hitting better I'd say he makes sense because he can play both, but he's still a better option than Nevin,

[Moose Milligan]

This is all @OsFanSinceThe80sfault.   He jumped the gun and put "mlb debut" in there for Vavra, totally jinxing everything.

If Vavra gets sent back down and never gets to play in a major league game, I hope @OsFanSinceThe80shas a hard time sleeping at night.  

[foxfield]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

This is all @OsFanSinceThe80sfault.   He jumped the gun and put "mlb debut" in there for Vavra, totally jinxing everything.

If Vavra gets sent back down and never gets to play in a major league game, I hope @OsFanSinceThe80shas a hard time sleeping at night.  

The baseball gods will not be toyed with.

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

4 hours ago, Moose Milligan said:

This is all @OsFanSinceThe80sfault.   He jumped the gun and put "mlb debut" in there for Vavra, totally jinxing everything.

If Vavra gets sent back down and never gets to play in a major league game, I hope @OsFanSinceThe80shas a hard time sleeping at night.  

[Yossarian]

I'm getting the impression that Vavra was called up to keep Arauz's seat on the bench warm. 

[ChuckS]

Tony alluded to it and I don’t know if it was directly quoted in some other thread but:

Hyde was basically asked if we could expect Vavra to get worked into the playing rotation and he responded that he’s going to put the best team he can out to win each day. Not even mentioning Vavra.

That tells me where Hyde’s head is at and it’s a huge disappointment that a prospect hitting .330 in Norfolk can’t get the nod over a veteran with no tenure on this team who is hitting .197. 

Really disheartening if this is how our non-Adley/Gunnar type prospects are going to be handled going forward. 

Edited July 29, 2022 by ChuckS

[Orioles0615]

7 hours ago, interloper said:

Alright, I'm attempting to slowly back away from the rage ledge about the Vavra thing. I know he'll get his moment eventually. And I have enjoyed Odor's presence on this team. But we have to acknowledge that his time is up pretty soon as a starting 2B. 

We have been asked to be very patient as fans the last few years and so it just puts me over the edge a little as we sit here on July 28 waiting for any big prospect not named Adley to finally make an impact on this team. Injuries have derailed Grayson and Bradish. Stowers and Vavra have been given the cup of coffee treatment. Guys like Vespi have been yo-yo'd a bit. Westburg and Henderson are torching AAA but remain in a holding pattern. Hall is ready but it's unclear how he's even being used now. 

It's a lot! And it only gets more frustrating the closer all these guys get and the later in the season it gets. 

But I'm just going to do dig deep and find some more patience and trust the process. 

My patience or whats left runs out at the end of this year. If the dick around in the offseason and don't spend money and then yo yo guys a the beginning of the year for service time (Grayson, Henderson, Westburg not on the opening day roster) my patience will be done. I am tired of the 2 years away from being 2 years away crap

43 minutes ago, ChuckS said:

Tony alluded to it and I don’t know if it was directly quoted in some other thread but:

Hyde was basically asked if we could expect Vavra to get worked into the playing rotation and he responded that he’s going to put the best team he can out to win each day. Not even mentioning Vavra.

That tells me where Hyde’s head is at and it’s a huge disappointment that a prospect hitting .330 in Norfolk can’t get the nod over a veteran with no tenure on this team who is hitting .197. 

Really disheartening if this is how our non-Adley/Gunnar type prospects are going to be handled going forward. 

Something something.. I like our guys

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

2 hours ago, Yossarian said:

I'm getting the impression that Vavra was called up to keep Arauz's seat on the bench warm. 

I'll predict he doesn't play at all until getting sent back down to Norfolk... so hopefully the opposite happens, since I've jinxed his debut by posting this thread. 

[DrinkinWithFermi]

Kind of a d*ck move to call a guy who is a decent prospect performing well at AAA up for the first time and then just have him sit on the bench for days on end.