07/26/22 Roster Moves: Terrin Vavra is called up from Norfolk (MLB debut) and Arauz to the IL

[Frobby]

9 minutes ago, Orioles0615 said:

No, in the so called "year of the prospect" when Elias said the beginning of the year that prospects will be coming up this year. Clearly he was full of shit. Everyone raved how different the team should look by the all star break, here we are and it looks the same. Its like the are afraid of guys losing prospect status

Nobody in the org called it the year of the prospect so far as I remember.  Clearly we expected Adley and Grayson.  Stowers and Hall were maybes.  

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Nobody in the org called it the year of the prospect so far as I remember.  Clearly we expected Adley and Grayson.  Stowers and Hall were maybes.  

Didn't Elias pretty much say that Hall would be up at some point?

I think he did.

Quote

“For those pitchers,” general manager Mike Elias said, referencing Hall and Bradish, “both of whom we saw today and both of whom pitched great and we saw the talent on display, our main concern is building them up for what we expect will be a long season, much of which will be at the Major League level.”

https://www.mlb.com/news/d-l-hall-other-orioles-prospects-impress

Edited July 28, 2022 by Can_of_corn
Added quote.

[Frobby]

22 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Didn't Elias pretty much say that Hall would be up at some point?

I think he did.

https://www.mlb.com/news/d-l-hall-other-orioles-prospects-impress

Yes, I agree.   And I do think Hall will be called up sometime in the next few weeks.  But who knows?

[Jammer7]

49 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Do you think if Odor was not here this year the team would not be where they are? How much impact do you think his veteranosity adds? 

I think Odor is a good clubhouse guy, but I don't for a second think he's some kind of reason why this team is doing some well. The team is 10-2 when he doesn't play. Is that because he's so good at cheerleading when he doesn't play? 

Every single number tells us that Odor is not a good MLB player. We are trying to be a contender. We do not need replacement level or below players starting every game when there are replacements that need to be seen. Maybe Vavra is not the answer. I'd rather give him a nice long look this year vs giving Odor playing time. 

Maybe its just me. Who knows? Maybe his veteranosity powers are beyond understanding? If the team played better with him in the games I might be swayed, but again, the facts show otherwise.

To answer your question, no, I do not think they would be where they are without him, or a veteran like him, to do as I described. There is not a metric to show it, but baseball men know it is real. I am surprised you would discount it so readily. That is why they talk about it on young teams that rise up. The defensive improvement for Mateo is definitely, in part, thanks to Odor.

Every sport has it’s need for a role player, a glue guy, that makes everyone else better. It may be time soon for Odor to move on. Perhaps his job here is done. IDK. His numbers are terrible, I agree. When he goes the other way, he’s actually productive. He tries to do too much, needs an approach change, at least in some situations. Easier to just DFA him and put an unproven, but talented, prospect out there. Vavra is an unproven hitter at this level, but should be better after his learning curve. But can he stay healthy? 

The team record without him, maybe it is an after effect of what groundwork he has helped to lay out for the younger guys. He also came in and pinch hit and won some games that way.

Odor is not a guy who has value to a contender, no. But for a struggling group of castoffs, who have been cast aside from various organizations and underachieved, his leadership has made a big difference. He makes the other players more accountable, but also more comfortable out there. 

To your point, however, there comes a time when that player’s effectiveness cannot justify his weak production. Perhaps they are at that time. 

 

[Can_of_corn]

28 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Yes, I agree.   And I do think Hall will be called up sometime in the next few weeks.  But who knows?

I think we've missed the cutoff for "much".

[forphase1]

54 minutes ago, Jammer7 said:

To answer your question, no, I do not think they would be where they are without him, or a veteran like him, to do as I described. There is not a metric to show it, but baseball men know it is real. I am surprised you would discount it so readily. That is why they talk about it on young teams that rise up.

Sure, they talk about it, as what else do you expect them to say?  The truth?  'Yeah we love Odor.  His bat sucks, he's average in the field at best, and because of senority I feel obligated to play him.'  Nope.  Instead they used unmeasurable (and I believe at least partially imaginary) clichés like chemistry, glue, veteran presence, etc to explain how 'valuable' they are to the team. 

 Again, I'm not trying to say that things like being a good teammate and mentoring other players isn't a good thing...it is.   But that in and of itself is not enough to justify keeping a roster spot when the performance at the plate is so subpar.  Regardless of what kind of flowery phrases the manager or teammates state to the media and fans.

I bet tonight when the 'glue' stranded 2 runners at 3rd base many of those teammates were wishing for someone with a little less veteran presence and a bit more bat to ball skills...

[OsFanSinceThe80s]

I hope Vavra gets the start for tomorrow's 12pm game. I think it's likely with the early start and Hyde decides to rest Odor or another infielder. 

[Frobby]

4 minutes ago, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

I hope Vavra gets the start for tomorrow's 12pm game. I think it's likely with the early start and Hyde decides to rest Odor or another infielder. 

I think you’ll be right.  

[LA2]

6 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Sure, they talk about it, as what else do you expect them to say?  The truth?  'Yeah we love Odor.  His bat sucks, he's average in the field at best, and because of senority I feel obligated to play him.'  Nope.  Instead they used unmeasurable (and I believe at least partially imaginary) clichés like chemistry, glue, veteran presence, etc to explain how 'valuable' they are to the team. 

 Again, I'm not trying to say that things like being a good teammate and mentoring other players isn't a good thing...it is.   But that in and of itself is not enough to justify keeping a roster spot when the performance at the plate is so subpar.  Regardless of what kind of flowery phrases the manager or teammates state to the media and fans.

I bet tonight when the 'glue' stranded 2 runners at 3rd base many of those teammates were wishing for someone with a little less veteran presence and a bit more bat to ball skills...

MOO is the "glue" and that was Santander, RMC, and Hays in the 9th and 10th innings: 0 for 3 with 3 runners LOB.

[Frobby]

Just now, LA2 said:

MOO is the "glue" and that was Santander, RMC, and Hays in the 9th and 10th innings: 0 for 3 with 3 runners LOB.

“MOO is the glue” has a nice ring to it.   You should copyright it and put it on some orange t-shirts.  

[Jammer7]

5 minutes ago, forphase1 said:

Sure, they talk about it, as what else do you expect them to say?  The truth?  'Yeah we love Odor.  His bat sucks, he's average in the field at best, and because of senority I feel obligated to play him.'  Nope.  Instead they used unmeasurable (and I believe at least partially imaginary) clichés like chemistry, glue, veteran presence, etc to explain how 'valuable' they are to the team. 

 Again, I'm not trying to say that things like being a good teammate and mentoring other players isn't a good thing...it is.   But that in and of itself is not enough to justify keeping a roster spot when the performance at the plate is so subpar.  Regardless of what kind of flowery phrases the manager or teammates state to the media and fans.

I bet tonight when the 'glue' stranded 2 runners at 3rd base many of those teammates were wishing for someone with a little less veteran presence and a bit more bat to ball skills...

He was 2-5 tonight, with an RBI. You’re right, he should get a hit every time up. Vavra will. And we’ll win every game when our closer gives up two runs in the 10th. Whatever…

I can see you don’t understand it. It’s cool. Have a good night. 

[foxfield]

13 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

We'll have to agree or disagree on this one. There are certain posters that love every player like they are their sons. Calling people fanboys or girls is just a way to put people into easy categories. If its hurts your feelings a little bit I'm sorry, but it's kinda how I see them. I don't think you are necessarily a fanboy, but I know you fall on the positive fan side where you love your veteranosity and that's fine.

As for your other points, I don't think Vavra's defense at 2B is that great. Odor could be better even though almost every metric shows him to below average. I do think Odor turns the DP well, probably better than Vavra, but if Vavra is not your guy at 2B, then bring up Martin to be the back up, don't just waste Vavra to be some bat off the bench that he's probably never done.

We also have to add in base running where Odor makes a pretty decent amount of outs on the base paths because he's not a great base runner while Vavra is an above average runner who I've never really seen make boneheaded mistakes on the base paths. Not saying he doesn't but I haven't seen it or heard it's an issue with him.

You and few others are getting too caught up with your feelings and not thinking about what's best for the team now and in the future. If a replacement level player is the best player we can do at 2B and this point in the season, Elias has failed in his job of continuing to improve the team.

If Vavra is not the guy because of his defensive shortcoming, then he should find someone else to replace Odor. 

 

The term is we can agree to disagree.  And of course you can.  But this is a bad look for you.  Not because it is condescending, but because it looks petty and beneath you.  Honestly, it comes across as bitter, not at the poster, not at the player, but at Oriole management for how they treat you.  (Which in my opinion has been poor and one in which I have personally written to the O's to correct.)

13 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

Do you think if Odor was not here this year the team would not be where they are? How much impact do you think his veteranosity adds? 

I think Odor is a good clubhouse guy, but I don't for a second think he's some kind of reason why this team is doing some well. The team is 10-2 when he doesn't play. Is that because he's so good at cheerleading when he doesn't play? 

Every single number tells us that Odor is not a good MLB player. We are trying to be a contender. We do not need replacement level or below players starting every game when there are replacements that need to be seen. Maybe Vavra is not the answer. I'd rather give him a nice long look this year vs giving Odor playing time. 

Maybe its just me. Who knows? Maybe his veteranosity powers are beyond understanding? If the team played better with him in the games I might be swayed, but again, the facts show otherwise.

I am not a fan of Odor, and I do not expect to see him beyond this year if that long.  But there are things that are being contributed that have nothing to do with the fact that he has been, except for a few occasional big swings at big times, almost an automatic out.  His impact on the field with Mateo for example.

But you do not have to drink kool-aid or be a fan boy to see that he has helped make the Oriole defense a huge part of the surprising success that this season has become.  We can all question if any of this would be upset or knocked off track by jettisoning Odor in favor of any of the prospects that are ready or near ready.  And I am certainly not in favor of locking up Odor in any way.  I think when Vavra or any other second baseman is in the dugout.  What Hyde is telling that kid, is that the hitting portion for them, will come.  But the day they step on the field, they simply have to play the glove and have to turn the double play.  Go 3-3, still gotta make the plays.  0-4 with 4Ks...you gotta make the plays.

The problem is, everyone wants the Orioles to make these moves on their timetable.  Start Adley day 1 (Which he might/or might not have without the minor injury). Bring up Grayson, Hall and others asap.  Many people also saw the Orioles tanking right through the end of 2022 based on the opening day lineup and the fact that none of the prospects were coming north to begin their apprenticeships. 

Here is a fact.  The Orioles have outperformed almost every expectation, in their first year focusing on ML performance by making sure the guys they put in position understand what is expected and what role they need to play for the team to be successful.  Some of the pieces they have plugged in, like Mateo, have improved to the point that they are no longer being discussed as placeholders but potential keepers.  That isn't and wont be the case for Odor.

I'm ready for Odor to be replaced, and I think he will be.  But I don't fret at all that he is in the lineup yesterday, or tomorrow.  He will be replaced when Elias wants him to be replaced.  And I am absolutely 100% certain, that this is not a Hyde is a veteran favoring guy as being the reason that Odor is in the lineup.  This isn't Buck and DD.  IF Hyde starts bucking what Elias wants, he will find his exit papers quickly in hand.

So yes, we can agree to disagree about the daily value of one Rougned Odor and if that is the case, then let's just leave it at that.  When one of the highest respected people here politely and respectfully tell you that you are out of line, perhaps take it to heart.  It isn't about the agreement or disagreement as to the value of Odor.  He will be gone soon enough.

Hopefully, because of you, we will all still be here to celebrate.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by foxfield

[Orioles0615]

Guess who is on the bench again

[interloper]

Honestly this series has made me sour on Hyde immensely. I don't even want to watch the game today. What is the thought process here? It feels like the Duquette/Buck disconnect all over again. 

[Aristotelian]

14 minutes ago, Orioles0615 said:

Guess who is on the bench again

Wow, Mullins gets the day off and we can't find a way to get Vavra in the lineup. He has to at least pinch hit for Nevin or McKenna at some point, doesn't he?