“Liftoff - Perhaps a Bit Misunderstood “

[Going Underground]

17 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

1) Absolutely agree on number 1! However, we are now doing things that he would have never done/allowed (like the complete teardown/multi-year rebuild), the development of a a real international program, and now possibly going cheap.

2) I hope Houston is the model. That would be my dream! It's not going to be easy to get there, but if their payroll will be our eventual payroll, I'm cool with that. I just don't want an A's/Rays model with continuous roster turnover and more importantly no fans.

3) If we are going to be committed to keeping Henderson and Rutschman long term at the expense of some free agents, I'm A okay with. My only question to that would be, if that's true shouldn't they be working on those guys extensions now (like Seattle did with JRod)? 

4) I don't think Verlander was stupid/dumb money because of the short term nature of the contract. Yes 6 years for deGrom is not wise. But 2 years of Verlander or 3/4 years for Bassitt or trading for an ace (no Pablo Lopez is not an ace IMO) and then signing that younger player to an extension; I think that would be a good approach if you plan on competing for the top of the AL with Hou.

I don't see 70 million getting it done. But I'm with you whatever it takes, to get there should be the approach.

The Rays are starting to invest in players going forward and unless the Orioles spend over the next few years will have a higher payroll.

 

Player	Age	Service Time	Contract	AAV	2023	2024	2025	2026	2027	2028	2029
Wander Franco	21.8	1.104	11 yr, $182M (2022-32), 2033 club option	$16,545,455	$2,454,545	$2,454,545	$8,454,545	$15,454,545	$22,454,545	$25,454,545	$25,454,545
Tyler Glasnow	29.3	5.158	2 yr, $30.35M (2023-24)	$15,175,000	$5,350,000	$25,000,000	FREE AGENT
Zach Eflin	28.7	6.018	3 yr, $40M (2023-25)	$13,333,333	$11,000,000	$11,000,000	$18,000,000	FREE AGENT
Manuel Margot	28.2	6.012	2 yr, $19M (2023-24), 2025 mutual option	$9,500,000	$7,000,000	$10,000,000	$12,000,000
Brooks Raley	34.4	3.045	2 yr, $10M (2022-23), 2024 club option	$5,000,000	$4,500,000	$6,500,000
Brandon Lowe	28.4	4.058	6 yr, $24M (2019-24), 2025-26 club options	$4,000,000	$5,250,000	$8,750,000	$10,500,000	$11,500,000

[Bemorewins]

6 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

The Rays are starting to invest in players going forward and unless the Orioles spend over the next few years will have a higher payroll.

 

Player	Age	Service Time	Contract	AAV	2023	2024	2025	2026	2027	2028	2029
Wander Franco	21.8	1.104	11 yr, $182M (2022-32), 2033 club option	$16,545,455	$2,454,545	$2,454,545	$8,454,545	$15,454,545	$22,454,545	$25,454,545	$25,454,545
Tyler Glasnow	29.3	5.158	2 yr, $30.35M (2023-24)	$15,175,000	$5,350,000	$25,000,000	FREE AGENT
Zach Eflin	28.7	6.018	3 yr, $40M (2023-25)	$13,333,333	$11,000,000	$11,000,000	$18,000,000	FREE AGENT
Manuel Margot	28.2	6.012	2 yr, $19M (2023-24), 2025 mutual option	$9,500,000	$7,000,000	$10,000,000	$12,000,000
Brooks Raley	34.4	3.045	2 yr, $10M (2022-23), 2024 club option	$5,000,000	$4,500,000	$6,500,000
Brandon Lowe	28.4	4.058	6 yr, $24M (2019-24), 2025-26 club options	$4,000,000	$5,250,000	$8,750,000	$10,500,000	$11,500,000

Point well taken! And it is completely and utterly sad that even they are starting to outspend us.

But hopefully something changes soon.

[Going Underground]

Also Astros have spent money. 

They were dead last in payroll in 2016.

2017-18th

2018-11th

2019- 8th

2020-4th

2021- 7th

2022- 11th

 

[JR Oriole]

31 minutes ago, pastorfan said:

I agree with this. I think it is foolish to think that ownership is going to spend big, especially with the family turmoil. Frankly, the money being handed out right now to the top tier is crazy. I think with all the young talent we almost need one more year to sort out who we should keep. Then try to lock up Gunnar and Adley. Then add a higher end FA or three. I don't want to be patient either.....but I think that is the best course of action. 

Is the money being handed out to the top tier going to cool off in some way in the future?  I don't see it ever returning to "normal," whatever normal even is.  Each year, the top free agents are going to get ridiculously high contracts.  The Braves approach of locking down their young talent to long-term deals at reasonable prices seems to be a really good model to follow.  Acuna, Albies, Riley, Harris, etc. If we are never going to be able to compete money-wise in the top tier (and that seems to be the common sentiment), is there something preventing us from doing what the Braves are doing?  I probably can answer my own question, knowing the flaccid desire to compete and win of ownership.  

[Frobby]

3 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

And I will again state that liftoff is a very strong term and when combined with his numerous prior comments about the money being there when the team became competitive certainly indicates that spending would be going up significantly.

He shouldn't have used the term.

Strongly disagree.   

[Frobby]

14 minutes ago, Going Underground said:

Also Astros have spent money. 

They were dead last in payroll in 2016.

2017-18th

2018-11th

2019- 8th

2020-4th

2021- 7th

2022- 11th

 

Right.  They didn’t go from last to 4th in one year.   It was a steady progression.  I doubt the O’s will ever go as high as 4th, given their smaller market, but I think the general progression will be similar.  

It’s also interesting to see that in their two WS years, they weren’t in the top 10.
 

[linedrive]

4 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Strongly disagree.   

I agree with your strong disagreement. I understood what Elias meant and never assumed we'd be throwing ludicrous money at the top free agents. I'm quite fine with the team being prudent with their spending and gather the players that will compete for the Championship and deliver. Their plan is working.

[mall-O-cup]

41 minutes ago, deward said:

For me, liftoff is a dramatic word that creates an expectation of dramatic action, especially combined with his other comments at other times about increasing the payroll. I was never confident that we were going to get dramatic action, given the ownership situation, but his statements implied that, which is why he's clearly having to walk it back now. 

For all that he's done, Elias still needs to prove that he can land this plane. The 2022 team was a happy accident, that he didn't do a thing to support while it was happening. We still don't know what it looks like when he's actually trying to build a good big league team. People talk about the Astros model, but that involved a number of pretty aggressive trades, some of them during the first summer that they started winning again. There's a lot of off-season left, so we'll see. It's hard to be patient with this franchise these days.

Yes, I think he is trying to walk it back now.

Words are powerful and his choice of wording was poor.

[mall-O-cup]

40 minutes ago, deward said:

I don't think the money is as crazy as people like to think. There's a lot of money in this sport.

Don't let them ever tell you there isn't enough money.

There is plenty.

[Can_of_corn]

5 minutes ago, linedrive said:

I agree with your strong disagreement. I understood what Elias meant and never assumed we'd be throwing ludicrous money at the top free agents. I'm quite fine with the team being prudent with their spending and gather the players that will compete for the Championship and deliver. Their plan is working.

And I'm not suggesting that he meant "throwing ludicrous money at the top free agents".

As I've stated before there is a middle ground.

I don't hear liftoff and think of going from 29th in payroll to 26th.

[Too Tall]

"Lift-off" - The START of an upward projectory. Let's hope 83 - 79 is the beginning! Hang on cause the flight may be bumpy. Interesting too - I hope. My only concern is who owns the rocket.

[RZNJ]

Ready for liftoff, to me, just meant that the team was now in a position to move forward.  Pretty simple.   The foundation had been set, the farm system was ready to produce, and the payroll was low with no future commitments.   Ready for liftoff!

 

[Going Underground]

31 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Right.  They didn’t go from last to 4th in one year.   It was a steady progression.  I doubt the O’s will ever go as high as 4th, given their smaller market, but I think the general progression will be similar.  

It’s also interesting to see that in their two WS years, they weren’t in the top 10.
 

[Going Underground]

Just now, Going Underground said:

33 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Right.  They didn’t go from last to 4th in one year.   It was a steady progression.  I doubt the O’s will ever go as high as 4th, given their smaller market, but I think the general progression will be similar.  

It’s also interesting to see that in their two WS years, they weren’t in the top 10.
 

Expand  

Opening Day payroll Astros:

2012- $61 mm.

2013- $22 mm.

2014- $45 mm.

2015- $71 mm.

2016- $ 69 mm.

2017- $ 118 mm. Liftoff

Oruoles opening day payroll 2017 was $142 mm.

 

[Roll Tide]

4 hours ago, Bemorewins said:

I hope this is all a smokescreen because the thing about Elias is that he will have options and eventually leave.

If the O’s plans are to not spend again… I ask WHY? Why sabotage your on potential success? 
 

I don’t get it. Are they in love with mediocrity? Does winning a World Series matter to the org as much as it should?

Please O’s don’t mess this up! Not this time. 

I’d say the Angelos’ family is currently interested in selling….unfortunately