“Liftoff - Perhaps a Bit Misunderstood “

[Bemorewins]

The Angelo’s group has made more money than a god since owning the team. If they need more then sell the team! 
 

I’m going to admit that I have a hard time with pretending to care about the wealth of billionaires. They have more money than they could ever spend in 10 lifetimes!

[Bemorewins]

4 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s incredibly obvious how this team is going to be built and how they will handle the payroll.  
 

Anyone thinking they are going to be handing out these huge, long term FA deals are just delusional.  It’s not happening for many reasons.

Could you tell me any reasons involving them not having it to spend? (I’m legitimately asking not being sarcastic because I admit there may be things that I don’t understand).

But if what you are saying is true, I’m going to have a real hard time with this. Because they will be asking me to spend my hard earned money and time when they are telling me “winning doesn’t matter as much to us”. That’s very self-defeating and almost the mentality of a loser. 

 

[Can_of_corn]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

It’s incredibly obvious how this team is going to be built and how they will handle the payroll.  
 

Anyone thinking they are going to be handing out these huge, long term FA deals are just delusional.  It’s not happening for many reasons.

Sure but there is a pretty wide area between that (deGrom) and where they appear to be headed next season(Gibson).

[Sports Guy]

15 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Could you tell me any reasons involving them not having it to spend? (I’m legitimately asking not being sarcastic because I admit there may be things that I don’t understand).

But if what you are saying is true, I’m going to have a real hard time with this. Because they will be asking me to spend my hard earned money and time when they are telling me “winning doesn’t matter as much to us”. That’s very self-defeating and almost the mentality of a loser. 

 

There are a few:

1) ownership is cheap (they are fine with doing the foundational stuff though and I would argue that’s more important)

2) Elias came from an organization, the best one in the sport, that doesn’t spend on huge, FA contracts. They sign there own and spend on 1-3 year FA deals, for the most part.

3) those large contracts tend to blow up in your face.

4) Free agency is a terrible way to build a team.

Now don’t get me wrong.,I’m not saying they shouldn’t spend. What I’m saying is that they are not going to sign guys to these super big deals unless it’s to keep one of their own.

The payroll will rise but it won’t get into the 9 figure area until you see more and more guys hitting arbitration, which is exactly what happened in the mid 2010s.

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by Sports Guy

[Sports Guy]

14 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Sure but there is a pretty wide area between that (deGrom) and where they appear to be headed next season(Gibson).

Ok…and? My point is about the huge mega contracts. They will sign guys to 1-3 year deals. I’m not sure I see a 4 year deal happening unless the AAV is less.

 

[dzorange]

51 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

I’m not saying anything you are saying isn’t true. I may not be ready to accept it. The O’s are a billion+ organization. Why would a few more million matter to them?

You ask about 2014 and 2022. I don’t know which made more for the club, but I know which team was WAY BETTER! And to me that’s what should matter MOST.

If the O’s primary goal is not to win and put the best product on the big league field as possible (please don’t let this be true). Why should I as a suffering fan of this team care and more importantly spend my money going to games and buying merchandise? And maybe even more important to that, why should I invest the time in trying to get my kids interested in the O’s; if their goal is mediocrity?

I’m not a billionaire, not even a millionaire yet, my money and time matter to me. I’m in my 40’s now and have no memories of a World Series game in Baltimore. I was 3 when they won their last series. I would like to see at least one championship before I kick the bucket. Considering how much time, energy, interest, and money I’ve spent on this team that I love!

The Orioles are 1-2 years ahead of schedule. Spending big (as far as the Orioles go) was not part of the plan at this point. It's still not really part of the plan, though we might get lucky and put more money into Free Agency than originally thought. If the goal is to win a World Series, it wasn't going to happen through Free Agency while the Orioles are still somewhat rebuilding. Baltimore needs to be smart with their money. This team should begin to peak in 2024 or 2025. If they haven't shelled out a decent amount of money by that point, then it's understandable to be upset. But at this point, it's still about building a roster to truly contend in a couple of years.

2023 should be an incredibly fun season. I think we should enjoy it. Much like this past season but with expectations. The team will be competing for a playoff spot. At least that's the expectation around the board. Putting together World Series caliber team is still a bit a ways, and that's part of the plan to do what's best for the organization. To maximize wins at its peak and in the long term.

If the Orioles end up exceeding expectations again in 2023, and this looks like a team that can make a run in the playoffs, there will be opportunities midseason to bolster the team as well. I think it's most likely that Elias would make his biggest moves through trades. Though my gut feeling is that they are putting some competitive offers out there to starting pitchers.

Edited December 6, 2022 by dzorange

[Bahama O's Fan]

If you don't want to win because it's more profitable not to, then you should not be able to own a team. This could be fixed with something real simple, a salary floor. It may not be a perfect solution, but it will require owners to spend, and if you gotta spend x amount of dollars anyway, why not be competitive? Oh, and while you are about it, MLB, put a frigging cap in place too. 

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, dzorange said:

The Orioles are 1-2 years ahead of schedule.

 

Are they tho?

Year four they had a ~.500 team.  Was the plan to take six years to get to that point?

[dzorange]

9 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Are they tho?

Year four they had a ~.500 team.  Was the plan to take six years to get to that point?

Elias joined the organization prior to the 2019 season. Covid shortened the 2020 season and stalled some development of players. If you would have laid out a timeline going into the 2019 season, as well as the 2022 season, and said that the Orioles would be going into the 2023 season with the expectation of the making the playoffs, I don't think people would have bought it.

The development of players at every level last year was unexpected as well. Fangraphs did an article midseason where the only notable Oriole prospect that didn't improve their value was Bradish. And then he came on pretty well the second half of the year. Not only did the MLB team finish .500 last year, but the overall value of the farm system also increased considerably.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, dzorange said:

Elias joined the organization prior to the 2019 season. Covid shortened the 2020 season and stalled some development of players. If you would have laid out a timeline going into the 2019 season, as well as the 2022 season, and said that the Orioles would be going into the 2023 season with the expectation of the making the playoffs, I don't think people would have bought it.

The development of players at every level last year was unexpected as well. Fangraphs did an article midseason where the only notable Oriole prospect that didn't improve their value was Bradish. And then he came on pretty well the second half of the year. Not only did the MLB team finish .500 last year, but the overall value of the farm system also increased considerably.

I do disagree here. The purpose of 2022 should have been to be a 500ish team. 2023 should have been a compete for a playoff spot year.

Now, where I will say they are ahead of schedule is that Elias didn’t try for 2022 to be a 500 season. It just happened that way. He should have tried more by doing various different things but it worked out (although if he had done more, maybe we get that playoff spot over Tampa)

They are on the path they should be, whether it’s by accident or not.

[dzorange]

7 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I do disagree here. The purpose of 2022 should have been to be a 500ish team. 2023 should have been a compete for a playoff spot year.

Now, where I will say they are ahead of schedule is that Elias didn’t try for 2022 to be a 500 season. It just happened that way. He should have tried more by doing various different things but it worked out (although if he had done more, maybe we get that playoff spot over Tampa)

They are on the path they should be, whether it’s by accident or not.

That's fair. I consider 2020 to be a lost season and I was more referring to Elias' plan. I still think the ceiling is higher and sped up more than expected with the overall development of our farm system.

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, dzorange said:

Elias joined the organization prior to the 2019 season. Covid shortened the 2020 season and stalled some development of players. If you would have laid out a timeline going into the 2019 season, as well as the 2022 season, and said that the Orioles would be going into the 2023 season with the expectation of the making the playoffs, I don't think people would have bought it.

The development of players at every level last year was unexpected as well. Fangraphs did an article midseason where the only notable Oriole prospect that didn't improve their value was Bradish. And then he came on pretty well the second half of the year. Not only did the MLB team finish .500 last year, but the overall value of the farm system also increased considerably.

Every team had to deal with Covid!

I so very much hate that excuse.

It's nonsense.

With the number of teams that make the playoffs I don't think it would at all be out of question to expect the 2023 team to be a playoff contender back in 2019.

I also don't think the general consensus is that the Orioles are "expected" to make the playoffs. 

Which 2022 playoff team do you see the Orioles, as currently constructed, being better than?

Edited December 6, 2022 by Can_of_corn
removed some caps.

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, dzorange said:

That's fair. I consider 2020 to be a lost season and I was more referring to Elias' plan. I still think the ceiling is higher and sped up more than expected with the overall development of our farm system.

2020 was lost in a sense but you still had a draft, you still had development and you still had guys getting older.  That all matters.

I said last offseason that the rebuild was over.  Some disagreed but it was true. The tearing down of the team, the getting rid of contracts and the building up of the farm system was over.  They were 3 years into it.

It was and is time to move to the next stage.

[dzorange]

7 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Every team had to deal with Covid!

I so very much hate that excuse.

It's nonsense.

With the number of teams that make the playoffs I don't think it would at all be out of question to expect the 2023 team to be a playoff contender back in 2019.

I also don't think the general consensus is that the Orioles are "expected" to make the playoffs. 

Which 2022 playoff team do you see the Orioles, as currently constructed, being better than?

The expectation among fans and the organization is to make the playoffs this year. That is where the ball club is at right now. That doesn’t mean they will. I think it’s a fair over/under for the team this season.

I’m not arguing whether or not the Orioles will make the playoffs, that’s just the level that the team is planning to be at this season.

Edited December 6, 2022 by dzorange

[Can_of_corn]

7 minutes ago, dzorange said:

The expectation among fans and the organization is to make the playoffs this year. That is where the ball club is at right now. That doesn’t mean they will. I think it’s a fair over/under for the team this season.

I'll grant you that a lot of the fans have that expectation.

I was speaking more of the "experts" and fans of other teams.

I expect the Astros to make the playoffs, I expect the Braves to make the playoffs.