Cole Irvin 2023

[maybenxtyr]

35 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Are you still high on Hall to be an effective starting pitcher? 

If so, what informs you of this belief? 

I think that ship could have possibly sailed. I think he’s “deloading” in Rookie Ball, if I’m not mistaken. The O’s are trying to figure how to increase the velo. He will be 25 this year. Has had a really troubling issue with walks and getting through 5. And has never dominated AAA to this point.

I think Hall's upside at this point would be a RP. At least if he's going to be used in Baltimore at any point this season.

[bluedog]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

Are you still high on Hall to be an effective starting pitcher? 

If so, what informs you of this belief? 

I think that ship could have possibly sailed. I think he’s “deloading” in Rookie Ball, if I’m not mistaken. The O’s are trying to figure how to increase the velo. He will be 25 this year. Has had a really troubling issue with walks and getting through 5. And has never dominated AAA to this point.

The number of times the O's have given up on a young pitcher whose then gone on to another team and become dominant (Hader, Gausman, Arrieta just to name three) really irks me. I think its too early to give up on Hall given how young he is.

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, bluedog said:

The number of times the O's have given up on a young pitcher whose then gone on to another team and become dominant (Hader, Gausman, Arrieta just to name three) really irks me. I think its too early to give up on Hall given how young he is.

Hader?

How did they "give up" on Hader?

He was a 19 year old in A ball when they traded him.

They also didn't give up on Gausman.  They were going into a full rebuild and he was an asset that was going to be gone before they were competitive again.

Jake they gave up on.

[Bemorewins]

5 minutes ago, bluedog said:

The number of times the O's have given up on a young pitcher whose then gone on to another team and become dominant (Hader, Gausman, Arrieta just to name three) really irks me. I think its too early to give up on Hall given how young he is.

Hall is young? He will be 25 in September and still has figured out how to graduate from AAA. What would be the acceptable age to come to terms with who a minor leaguer will most likely be? 26? 27? 28? 29?

[bluedog]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Hader?

How did they "give up" on Hader?

He was a 19 year old in A ball when they traded him.

They also didn't give up on Gausman.  They were going into a full rebuild and he was an asset that was going to be gone before they were competitive again.

Jake they gave up on.

The very definition of "give up" is to stop owning, using or claiming something (oxford dictionary).

Trading a player meets two of those criteria.

[Can_of_corn]

2 minutes ago, bluedog said:

The very definition of "give up" is to stop owning, using or claiming something (oxford dictionary).

Trading a player meets two of those criteria.

Cool.

Since you are looking at Oxford you might want to check the Oxford Languages entry for "give up on":

Quote

stop having faith or belief in someone or something.

 

[bluedog]

3 minutes ago, Bemorewins said:

Hall is young? He will be 25 in September and still has figured out how to graduate from AAA. What would be the acceptable age to come to terms with who a minor leaguer will most likely be? 26? 27? 28? 29?

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1539301-putting-mlb-aging-theories-to-the-test-on-star-players

Most MLB player peak at 29

Gausman has a career ERA over 4.00 and whip over 1.3 until he was 29. After that he's near 3.00 ERA and 1.10 whip.

Heck - Hoyt Wilhelm didn't even debut in the majors until he was 29 years old.

Randy Johnson gave up an average of 6.0 B/9 until he was 29 years old when he finally figured out how to pitch instead of just throwing.

I am not saying that Hall will become Johnson, Wilhelm or even Gausman. I'm just saying givingn up on a guy with Halls ability at 24 years old seem premature.

 

[bluedog]

18 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

Cool.

Since you are looking at Oxford you might want to check the Oxford Languages entry for "give up on":

 

Also supports my statement. If you trade someone away, you can't have to much faith in them.

Glad you agree with me.

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, bluedog said:

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1539301-putting-mlb-aging-theories-to-the-test-on-star-players

Most MLB player peak at 29

Gausman has a career ERA over 4.00 and whip over 1.3 until he was 29. After that he's near 3.00 ERA and 1.10 whip.

Heck - Hoyt Wilhelm didn't even debut in the majors until he was 29 years old.

Randy Johnson gave up an average of 6.0 B/9 until he was 29 years old when he finally figured out how to pitch instead of just throwing.

I am not saying that Hall will become Johnson, Wilhelm or even Gausman. I'm just saying givingn up on a guy with Halls ability at 24 years old seem premature.

 

You think that DL Hall could pitch to a 4.00 ERA in the Major Leagues until age 29? He has never done that consistently at AAA as of yet.

Do you think DL Hall has the stuff profile of Randy Johnson or Gausman for that matter?

I wasn’t around to watch Hoyt Wilhelmina pitch (and I am not a young man)…lol But I thought he was knuckleball pitcher?

You must think very highly of DL Hall for whatever reason. Good for you. I hope he becomes a decent reliever for us. But I don’t hold out much hope for players of his profile. Apparently, many talent evaluators feel similarly as they have begun moving him off of top 100 lists. Does that seem a bit concerning to you?

[Can_of_corn]

9 minutes ago, bluedog said:

Also supports my statement. If you trade someone away, you can't have to much faith in them.

Glad you agree with me.

Not it doesn't.

Nothing about the Gausman trade had anything to do with the O's not having faith in him.  It had to do with trading an asset to lower payroll obligations.  They hadn't lost faith in Hader, he was one of three pieces in a deal to help the team in the short term. 

Trying to go dictionary on me was a decent effort, but ultimately futile.

[wildcard]

1 hour ago, Bemorewins said:

Are you still high on Hall to be an effective starting pitcher? 

If so, what informs you of this belief? 

I think that ship could have possibly sailed. I think he’s “deloading” in Rookie Ball, if I’m not mistaken. The O’s are trying to figure how to increase the velo. He will be 25 this year. Has had a really troubling issue with walks and getting through 5. And has never dominated AAA to this point.

Hall has said that he believes that his drop in velocity is due to the back injury which caused him not to do weight training  last winter and this spring.    Weight training is what I think he is doing in Sarasota.   If he is right his veto could come back, maybe rather quickly.

He is probably more likely a reliever if he makes the O's this season but with that talent I would not rule out him helping in the rotation if he gets healthy and is pitching well.

He is still a  starter next year IMO.   Way too much talent to give up on.

[Bemorewins]

Just now, wildcard said:

Hall has said that he believes that his drop in velocity is due to the back injury which caused him not to do weight training  last winter and this spring.    Weight training is what I think he is doing in Sarasota.   If he is right his veto could come back, maybe rather quickly.

He is probably more likely a reliever if he makes the O's this season but with that talent I would not rule out him helping in the rotation if he gets healthy and is pitching well.

He is still a  starter next year IMO.   Way too much talent to give up on.

I wonder if he was not in the Orioles organization but another, if you would have a similar assessment? 

Before the "back injury" and drop in velo, he was a major question mark to me. He has never been able to dominate AAA consistently, stop walking batters at a high rate, or go deep into games (like past the 5th inning). At least with Grayson, he has checked those boxes, so there is a reasonable belief that if he can fix the command issues, he can be a good starting pitcher. With Hall, other than the superb strikeout rate, there isn't a whole lot there to like as a starter IMO.

For any prospect, I like to see them have some sort of consistent success at AAA before I believe that they can succeed at the Major League level. The jump in competition has to be a factor.  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

I wonder if he was not in the Orioles organization but another, if you would have a similar assessment? 

Before the "back injury" and drop in velo, he was a major question mark to me. He has never been able to dominate AAA consistently, stop walking batters at a high rate, or go deep into games (like past the 5th inning). At least with Grayson, he has checked those boxes, so there is a reasonable belief that if he can fix the command issues, he can be a good starting pitcher. With Hall, other than the superb strikeout rate, there isn't a whole lot there to like as a starter IMO.

For any prospect, I like to see them have some sort of consistent success at AAA before I believe that they can succeed at the Major League level. The jump in competition has to be a factor.  

So you would have sent Machado and Markakis to AAA to check some boxes?

[Bemorewins]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

So you would have sent Machado and Markakis to AAA to check some boxes?

No. They are exceptions to the rule as uber prospects. I don't put Hall in that category. Do you?

I think Machado was brought to the bigs at what 19/20 and Markakis at like what 21/22? Hall will be 25 in September. 

I'm not saying that he can't be the odds, but the odds don't really appear to be in his favor in terms of becoming a good starting pitcher. Do you disagree?

[Frobby]

31 minutes ago, bluedog said:

Also supports my statement. If you trade someone away, you can't have to much faith in them.

Glad you agree with me.

I can’t agree with this.  First of all, guys are traded all the time in “sell” trades where you know the player is good but the team isn’t so you need to get younger guys in exchange.  And conversely, there are plenty of trades involving young guys who the team is high on, but they need someone who can help immediately so they make a trade.   To me, “give up on” implies that the team no longer expects the player to be good.