Gunnar Henderson 2023

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, banks703 said:

If we look at how much Gunnar has improved at SS this year, playing half of the season as a 21 year old, playing half of the season as a 3B, it's pretty remarkable that he has progressed as much as he has. Prior to the season I had both of Joey and Jorge ahead of Gunnar as a defender but I think that he's right there with both of those guys and I would probably put him ahead of Jorge.

Gunnar (8 DRS) currently ranks 7th while having played only 432 innings at SS this year. The guys that are ahead of him:

Franco 948 innings (17 DRS)

Swanson 1046 innings (15 DRS)

Volpe 1127 innings (14 DRS)

Rojas 782 innings (11 DRS)

Lindor 1132 innings 11 (DRS)

Tovar 1099 innings (9 DRS)

Gunnar's DRS pace (had he played equal innings to Lindor this year) would be 21.. he would be four DRS better than Wander Franco. 

UZR and OAA both have Gunnar at exactly 0, which I find strange but not completely unexpected because of how they're measured. For reference, Jorge's OAA is at 2 but I don't think he's played that well there. I don't think he's played as well as Gunnar at SS this year. 

Again, what I have been stating about Holliday and Gunnar and the rest of the SS in the system is that Holliday is not going to be the best defensive option at the position.

 

He doesn’t have to be the best defensive option to be the one who gets the job.

 

[banks703]

10 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

Today's Rangers with Seager and Semien maybe resemble how the Orioles will look assuming

 

 

I've stated multiple times that I see the combo of Gunnar and Holliday being comparable to Seager and Semien. I think this is what the O's have in Gunnar and Holliday for about $500 million cheaper than what the Rangers pay for it.

[banks703]

1 minute ago, Sports Guy said:

He doesn’t have to be the best defensive option to be the one who gets the job.

 

Buddy, this is just not a sensible argument. We're now disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

We'll see where things are in two years when Gunnar has a gold glove and a silver slugger award. 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, banks703 said:

Buddy, this is just not a sensible argument. We're now disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing.

We'll see where things are in two years when Gunnar has a gold glove and a silver slugger award. 

Im not now nor will I ever be your buddy.

Third base matters in this discussion as well.

If the Os do not have an above average, very good defensive third baseman (not sure Mayo qualifies as that), the choice very well could be have an elite GG level third baseman and a very good SS vs a very good SS and and average or so third baseman.

Ortiz could factor into this as well…or he could be traded or the Os may want him at second. The FG article that you love to quote now also threw some shade at Ortiz at SS.

All of this is to say that there is a lot to be decided here and what happens at second, third and the trade market will factor into what happens at SS.

[Malike]

How are we determining this? By what some guy wrote about him in an article a few pages back? In case anyone forgot, Gunnar was rated as a 50 fielder, even last season, when he was a prospect. Holliday is rated as a 55 fielder right now. They are both rated the same speed and Gunnar has a 65 arm vs. the more than adequate 55 that Holliday is rated at. 

We have to believe these people, right? It's what they do for a living, as was suggested earlier.

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Im not now nor will I ever be your buddy.

I hope someone hugs you today. 

[banks703]

8 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

Im not now nor will I ever be your buddy.

Third base matters in this discussion as well.

If the Os do not have an above average, very good defensive third baseman (not sure Mayo qualifies as that), the choice very well could be have an elite GG level third baseman and a very good SS vs a very good SS and and average or so third baseman.

Ortiz could factor into this as well…or he could be traded or the Os may want him at second. The FG article that you love to quote now also threw some shade at Ortiz at SS.

All of this is to say that there is a lot to be decided here and what happens at second, third and the trade market will factor into what happens at SS.

I quoted the fangraphs article once. I'd hardly define that as loving to quote it but alright. 

You should google the term ad hominem. 

[Sports Guy]

9 minutes ago, Malike said:

How are we determining this? By what some guy wrote about him in an article a few pages back? In case anyone forgot, Gunnar was rated as a 50 fielder, even last season, when he was a prospect. Holliday is rated as a 55 fielder right now. They are both rated the same speed and Gunnar has a 65 arm vs. the more than adequate 55 that Holliday is rated at. 

We have to believe these people, right? It's what they do for a living, as was suggested earlier.

No we are supposed to believe some guy who is kind of part of the scouting community and can no longer dunk a basketball because he’s 38 and only 5’9”.  I mean, if that’s not the resume of someone better than those guys, I don’t know what is.

[Malike]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

No we are supposed to believe some guy who is kind of part of the scouting community and can no longer dunk a basketball because he’s 38 and only 5’9”.  I mean, if that’s not the resume of someone better than those guys, I don’t know what is.

But, but, the scouting community has rated Holliday a 55 fielder vs. a 50 for Gunnar. This is some metaverse-type crap, I guess, where lower is better? Or, maybe the scouts are only infallible when it proves someone's point?

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

No we are supposed to believe some guy who is kind of part of the scouting community and can no longer dunk a basketball because he’s 38 and only 5’9”.  I mean, if that’s not the resume of someone better than those guys, I don’t know what is.

Again, Google ad hominem. It may help you understand more of yourself.

I wonder who hurt you. 
 

I extended a ban-bet to you which you conveniently passed over. You’re so confident in what you think you know, take it. One of us will be right, the other will leave the board.

Your routine of personally attacking people when they disagree with you is tired, good buddy. Take the ban-bet. 

Edited September 2, 2023 by banks703

[Sports Guy]

1 minute ago, Malike said:

But, but, the scouting community has rated Holliday a 55 fielder vs. a 50 for Gunnar. This is some metaverse-type crap, I guess, where lower is better? Or, maybe the scouts are only infallible when it proves someone's point?

I actually have no doubt that Gunnar has superior skills to Holliday. Gunnar has superior skills to almost anyone. He’s that talented.

But that doesn’t mean he will be the SS at the end of all of this. Just so many factors involved and yes, one of those factors is Holliday putting in the work to get better.

[Malike]

Just now, Sports Guy said:

I actually have no doubt that Gunnar has superior skills to Holliday. Gunnar has superior skills to almost anyone. He’s that talented.

But that doesn’t mean he will be the SS at the end of all of this. Just so many factors involved and yes, one of those factors is Holliday putting in the work to get better.

If we're going off scout grades, Holliday grades out a 70 overall. That usually doesn't suggest a ploddingly slow baserunner or iron glove defender. We'll see. To suggest Holliday isn't athletic or fast is seriously pretty funny, though.

[banks703]

2 minutes ago, Malike said:

If we're going off scout grades, Holliday grades out a 70 overall. That usually doesn't suggest a ploddingly slow baserunner or iron glove defender. We'll see. To suggest Holliday isn't athletic or fast is seriously pretty funny, though.

No one has ever suggested that he isn’t fast or athletic. 

[banks703]

5 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

I actually have no doubt that Gunnar has superior skills to Holliday. Gunnar has superior skills to almost anyone. He’s that talented.

But that doesn’t mean he will be the SS at the end of all of this. Just so many factors involved and yes, one of those factors is Holliday putting in the work to get better.

And the back pedaling begins. 
 

Two years from now I’m sure you’ll reference how you always thought that Gunnar would stick at SS and you’ll cite this post, right? 
 

 

[Sports Guy]

14 minutes ago, banks703 said:

And the back pedaling begins. 
 

Two years from now I’m sure you’ll reference how you always thought that Gunnar would stick at SS and you’ll cite this post, right? 
 

 

I’m not backpedaling at all. I fully expect Holliday to be there. I think he puts in the work needed because him being a SS is how he maxes out his value. But he still has to do it.

Maybe he gets complacent and lazy? I can’t predict that but I don’t think that will be the case.