Need a little stat help here

[Baltimorecuse]

Mark Belanger is almost deified by O's fans.  So I thought I'd look at the stats for his 18 seasons because I remembered he couldn't hit.  

In 18 seasons

HRs......20

OBP... .300

SLG.... .280

OPS ..... .580

OPS+.....  68

RBIs  ....  389/18= 22 per season rounded up

So could someone explain a WAR of 41?  I'm not trolling.  I don't get it.

 

[billhatf]

Did you ever see him play defense?  That's where is value lies.   He and brooks made the left side of the infield almost impenetrable. 

[Baltimorecuse]

4 minutes ago, billhatf said:

Did you ever see him play defense?  That's where is value lies.   He and brooks made the left side of the infield almost impenetrable. 

Yeah, I did.  Mateo is easily as good.  

[24fps]

8 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

Mark Belanger is almost deified by O's fans.  So I thought I'd look at the stats for his 18 seasons because I remembered he couldn't hit.  

In 18 seasons

HRs......20

OBP... .300

SLG.... .280

OPS ..... .580

OPS+.....  68

RBIs  ....  389/18= 22 per season rounded up

So could someone explain a WAR of 41?  I'm not trolling.  I don't get it.

 

Remove the defensive component of WAR and you get an oWAR of 14.7 over his 18 seasons which is more in line with what you would expect given his anemic batting stats.  dWAR is the separated defensive component and Belanger's career total of 39.5 and is also representative of his fielding ability.

[Moose Milligan]

11 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

Yeah, I did.  Mateo is easily as good.  

I think Mateo has been very good, perhaps excellent at times.  

But Belanger is in the conversation as being one of the best defensive shortstops ever.  I don't think anyone is putting Mateo in that conversation.

Per @billhatf's and @24fps's explanations, they're exactly correct.  His value was in his defense.  You don't have to like it or understand it, but that's what the stats show.

[24fps]

8 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

Yeah, I did.  Mateo is easily as good.  

Belanger's 162-game dWAR average is 3.2 while Mateo's is 1.6.  Skepticism is certainly warranted with defensive stats but I'm not sure that Mateo is "easily" as good.

[webbrick2010]

15 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

Yeah, I did.  Mateo is easily as good.  

LOL

[EddeeEddee]

4 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

Yeah, I did.  Mateo is easily as good.  

Even if that's true, I'm not sure what your point is.  When Belanger played there weren't many shortstops that were good hitters.  Up the middle it was all about the defense back then.  The combination of great hitting and great up the middle defense back then was quite rare.  Even at second base the Orioles had several weak hitters for a number of years.  

That started to change in the late 70s and 80s with the arrival of Cal Ripken and other players around the league who were good enough up the middle defensively (though not Belanger good). 

So nowadays, after Ripken, A-Rod, Tejada, Lindor, etc etc came along it's not acceptable for a starting shortstop to not be a decent hitter.  It's generally true now for all positions except pitchers.  

Back to Mark Belanger, his top dWAR years (according to Baseball Reference) began in his late 20s.  So it appears his peak years defensively were in his late 20s to mid 30s.  Mateo is 28 now, so maybe like Belanger he could get even better a defense like Belanger did -- but Mateo won't be given the chance to start in this era unless he can show he can pretty well on a consistent basis.

[Baltimorecuse]

3 minutes ago, 24fps said:

Belanger's 162-game dWAR average is 3.2 while Mateo's is 1.6.  Skepticism is certainly warranted with defensive stats but I'm not sure that Mateo is "easily" as good.

Almost pure subjectivity.

[Baltimorecuse]

2 minutes ago, webbrick2010 said:

LOL

I lied, Mateo is better.

[Too Tall]

The Oriole teams that Belanger played on could afford to carry his lack of offense. He made the pitching even better than it already was. The Blade was in a league all his own. He was that special. I like Mateo but he is no Belanger IMO.

[Baltimorecuse]

2 minutes ago, EddeeEddee said:

Even if that's true, I'm not sure what your point is.  When Belanger played there weren't many shortstops that were good hitters.  Up the middle it was all about the defense back then.  The combination of great hitting and great up the middle defense back then was quite rare.  Even at second base the Orioles had several weak hitters for a number of years.  

That started to change in the late 70s and 80s with the arrival of Cal Ripken and other players around the league who were good enough up the middle defensively (though not Belanger good). 

So nowadays, after Ripken, A-Rod, Tejada, Lindor, etc etc came along it's not acceptable for a starting shortstop to not be a decent hitter.  It's generally true now for all positions except pitchers.  

Back to Mark Belanger, his top dWAR years (according to Baseball Reference) began in his late 20s.  So it appears his peak years defensively were in his late 20s to mid 30s.  Mateo is 28 now, so maybe like Belanger he could get even better a defense like Belanger did -- but Mateo won't be given the chance to start in this era unless he can show he can pretty well on a consistent basis.

I agree that shortstops of that era were carried for defense.  I find it impossible to believe he was 41 times better defensively than the average shortstop.  

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

I lied, Mateo is better.

 

30 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

 I'm not trolling.

 

I agree.

You lied.

You are clearly trolling with that post.

[Baltimorecuse]

4 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

 

I agree.

You lied.

You are clearly trolling with that post.

No, I'm not.  I really don't understand a 41 WAR.  Because you can't answer, you call it trolling.  

Nice try.

[EddeeEddee]

2 minutes ago, Baltimorecuse said:

I agree that shortstops of that era were carried for defense.  I find it impossible to believe he was 41 times better defensively than the average shortstop.  

What do you mean 41 times better?  Do you mean is career dWAR is 41 above the average shortstop?  If so that doesn't mean he's 41 times better -- it means that defensively he is valued at 41 wins more than the average shortstop over his entire career.  And he played for about 18 seasons, which is another reason it's so high.  

You do raise an interesting point about WAR and one of the confusing things about it.  I'm no stats expert by any means, but I think WAR loses its value when comparing players from different eras.  Belanger's WAR is really relevant against other players of his era.  I doubt WAR really has much value or meaning when comparing a player's skills from 4 or 5 decades ago to one from today.  I think it's designed to measure players against others in their own era -- not all eras.