Should the Orioles retire Mussina’s number?

[Moose Milligan]

1 hour ago, DrungoHazewood said:

It's like fans expect the world to be a Hallmark Channel Christmas movie. Girl works at a small town flower shop, guy moves in next door. He's cute, works at the local garage fixing cars. Sure, he drinks too much and has this weird obsession with Dungeons and Dragons, but deep down he's a good guy. So when FTD Flowers offers the girl a $300k a year job at their headquarters in New York she thinks about it, but in the end she stays in Bedford Falls making $40k a year with her quirky-but-cute guy. Roll credits.

Yea, no, that's not the way the world works.

And now you guys know something about Drungo. 

[Sports Guy]

24 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Believe me, I usually don’t!  But in this case  I really did think you were only talking about him not winning a WS with the O’s, not the other things. But I understand what you meant now.

As to not winning 20 games with the O’s, it’s amazing how things have changed.  The O’s had at least one 20-game winner from 1968 to 1980.  Many times they had multiple 20 game winners: 1969 (2), 1970 (3), 1971 (4), 1975 (2), 1976 (2), and 1980 (2).  But after Boddicker in 1984, no Orioles pitcher has ever won 20.  It’s partially the fact that our pitching often has been bad, but it’s also the fact that starters make fewer starts and throw fewer innings.  A 20-win season now is like a 24-25 win season back in those days.  

Mussina won 19 for us twice, and 18 twice.  In one of those years, 1995, 19 wins was the most in the league, because the season was limited to 144 games due to a strike.  Mussina also won 14 games in the 112-game strike-shortened 1994 season.  Good chance he would have won 20 in both those seasons if not for the strike that ended 1994 and then leaked into the first three weeks of 1995.   

 

Low career BB rate. HR rate pretty low considering the era he played in. Won 64% of his decisions, 270 career wins.

His career FIP and ERA+ are almost identical to Palmers.

Very durable. Averaged 6.2 IP per start.

Saying his HOF resume is only boosted by longevity is disingenuous at best. In fact, his last season was really good. He could have kept going. May have had a chance at 300 wins.

In his last 5 seasons, he had an ERA+ of just under 100 3 times and it was 129 and 131 the other seasons.

He was essentially a league average pitcher or better from age 35-39.

Thats not just hanging around for stats purposes. That’s legitimately being a valuable member of a team and being able to do that for so long is part of what makes a HOFer a HOFer.

Edited July 31, 2023 by Sports Guy

[crawjo]

They should have not given #35 to anyone after Mussina left in 2000, and then retired it after his career was over. It was only Angelos's petulance that prevented that from happening. Now that Rutschman has it, the best you can hope for is that Rutschman has a good enough career that his number is retired. Then you could do a joint ceremony for both Rutschman and Mussina. The Yankees did something similar with #8 and Bill Dickey and Yogi Berra, I believe. 

[CynBeth]

I am #3.

[Tony-OH]

47 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Believe me, I usually don’t!  But in this case  I really did think you were only talking about him not winning a WS with the O’s, not the other things. But I understand what you meant now.

As to not winning 20 games with the O’s, it’s amazing how things have changed.  The O’s had at least one 20-game winner from 1968 to 1980.  Many times they had multiple 20 game winners: 1969 (2), 1970 (3), 1971 (4), 1975 (2), 1976 (2), and 1980 (2).  But after Boddicker in 1984, no Orioles pitcher has ever won 20.  It’s partially the fact that our pitching often has been bad, but it’s also the fact that starters make fewer starts and throw fewer innings.  A 20-win season now is like a 24-25 win season back in those days.  

Mussina won 19 for us twice, and 18 twice.  In one of those years, 1995, 19 wins was the most in the league, because the season was limited to 144 games due to a strike.  Mussina also won 14 games in the 112-game strike-shortened 1994 season.  Good chance he would have won 20 in both those seasons if not for the strike that ended 1994 and then leaked into the first three weeks of 1995.   

 

There is no doubt the 20-game winner thing is not as much of a component due to how pitching has changed, but for the most part, I feel like Mussina pitched in a time when they were still a thing. 

Again though, despite my obvious bias against the guy, I've never argued that he wasn't good or very good for long time. 

[24fps]

Yes.  As long as you attach Mike Cuellar's name to it.  Otherwise let's all wait until we see how Adley works out.  Mussina, who was one of my favorite Orioles at the time, can go pound sand.

[Malike]

The dude is in the Orioles Hall of Fame, isn't he? I'm a solid number 4 on this. Zero you know what's given.

[tntoriole]

2 hours ago, Sports Guy said:

I’d have no problem with them retiring his number in a vacuum.

I think there’s a real argument that he was the best pitcher this organization has ever had. Palmer had the longevity and better Os career but Moose has the argument of just purely being the better pitcher.

Now, that said, if the club has criteria X for retiring a number and he didn’t meet it, so be it. I’m ok with not retiring it for that reason.

But the idea that he left what was a completely awful dog poop organization with an awful owner, even if it was to go to the Yankees, is meaningless to me. All of the blame is on PA for that.

I think some of the stuff about “the Yankees made me feel wanted” was a little boo hoo/baby type stuff but I all think that was a direct shot at Angelos for being so cheap. He gave this team a long time of value and high level pitching. He was an outstanding postseason pitcher for us and PA basically told him he wasn’t worth much. So, I get it.

“Best pitcher” is completely arbitrary so sure arguments can always be made from those who wish to argue. 
So, as a completely one man subjective opinion that is not open for argument lol .. No one I have seen pitch in an Orioles uniform did so better than Jim Palmer.. i was fortunate to have seen both pitch with my own eyes many, many games. 

[Jim'sKid26]

#5

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

“Best pitcher” is completely arbitrary so sure arguments can always be made from those who wish to argue. 
So, as a completely one man subjective opinion that is not open for argument lol .. No one I have seen pitch in an Orioles uniform did so better than Jim Palmer.. i was fortunate to have seen both pitch with my own eyes many, many games. 

That’s all fine but the stats don’t back you up. Or at the very least, the stats say it’s really close.  Eyes lie but stats don’t. Actual performance doesn’t. 

The nostalgia of your childhood isn’t really relevant. (And neither is mine)

 

[forphase1]

I'm petty at times, so put me down as solidly in the #5 group.  That said I hope one day we retire the number for Adley, and can perhaps do a 'joint' retiring to put the issue to bed.  But I would not retire it just for Mussina.  And I loved him, which, frankly, is part of the problem I suppose.  

[Jim'sKid26]

3 hours ago, Frobby said:

There are some factual errors here.  Angelos never matched the Yankees’ offer or even close.  And Mussina did win 20 games, in his final season.  He belongs in Cooperstown, and to mention him in the same breath as Baines is silly.

None of that means his number should be retired in Baltimore. 
 

"Forget it. He's rolling." 

[tntoriole]

9 minutes ago, Sports Guy said:

That’s all fine but the stats don’t back you up. Or at the very least, the stats say it’s really close.  Eyes lie but stats don’t. Actual performance doesn’t. 

The nostalgia of your childhood isn’t really relevant. (And neither is mine)

 

And the bias of the modern day person  against persons of the past they never saw is pretty well documented.  
 

You are entitled to your opinion. Palmer was a better Oriole pitcher in my opinion. 

 

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, tntoriole said:

And the bias of the modern day person  against persons of the past they never saw is pretty well documented.  
 

You are entitled to your opinion. Palmer was a better Oriole pitcher in my opinion. 

 

As I said, at their peaks, it’s close. I never definitively said which was better but there is unquestionably an argument for it.  Complete dismissal of it shows ignorance to actual performance and it shows nostalgic feelings.

 

[glenn__davis]

They shouldn't retire it.

I get that the detached/reasonable fan is the cool fan to be these days, but ultimately the guy had a very good offer from our team and left it for a better offer from a rival team.  Eventually the fanatic part of the "fan" has to take over at some point.