Would you trade Gunnar Henderson for George Kirby or Spencer Strider?

[Brooks The Great]

11 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

Not saying I'd make the deal but this is a bizarre argument.

The goal is to win the World Series not collect guys that played here for six seasons of a HoF career.

 

Edit-In hindsight I would have traded Manny in 2014 for a ring and a TOR pitcher.

 

Trading one of the best young players in baseball for a pitcher that will generate less overall value just because the team needs a starting picher - when starting pitching can be acquired in other ways - is a bizarre argument. 

Gunnar just produced a 6+ WAR season, and he has upside for more. Neither Kirby nor Strider have surpassed a 4 WAR season. Me saying that Gunnar has the best chance for a Hall of Fame career is a straightforward and concise way of expressing that he has not only been a considerably more valuable player than either Kirby or Strider, but that he will continue to be more valuable, and that the Orioles shouldn't trade him for a pitcher. And I have no doubt that they won't.

I can see why you're one of the most antagonistic and least liked posters on this board. You offer up terrible takes with a confrontational tone.

[Can_of_corn]

1 hour ago, Brooks The Great said:

Trading one of the best young players in baseball for a pitcher that will generate less overall value just because the team needs a starting picher - when starting pitching can be acquired in other ways - is a bizarre argument. 

Gunnar just produced a 6+ WAR season, and he has upside for more. Neither Kirby nor Strider have surpassed a 4 WAR season. Me saying that Gunnar has the best chance for a Hall of Fame career is a straightforward and concise way of expressing that he has not only been a considerably more valuable player than either Kirby or Strider, but that he will continue to be more valuable, and that the Orioles shouldn't trade him for a pitcher. And I have no doubt that they won't.

I can see why you're one of the most antagonistic and least liked posters on this board. You offer up terrible takes with a confrontational tone.

What other way does this team have to acquire high caliber starting pitching in this current competitive window? 

Also, just to fact check you, Kirby put up a 4.4 fWAR season in 2023, while Strider put up a fWAR of 4.9 in 2022 and 5.5 in 2023.  (Gunnar's fWAR was 4.6 btw)

Now you can, and I'm sure will, discount the flavor of WAR that doesn't support your argument, but you might not want to ignore its existence.

 

[DirtyBird]

10 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I know right?  It was even cooler when Gunnar faced Kirby in the ALCS.

Is this your support for your argument that Strider or Kirby would lead us to the World Series?

[Can_of_corn]

Just now, DirtyBird said:

Is this your support for your argument that Strider or Kirby would lead us to the World Series?

Nope.

Just giving smart ass right back at you.

I wasn't making an actual argument that adding any one player would put this team in the WS.  Baseball playoffs don't work like that as both of us know.  I've most certainly never made an argument that either of those two in particular would do it.

Brooks doesn't want to give up a young HoF caliber player.  The team had one a decade ago with Manny and what did it get them?  As much as I enjoyed watching Manny I would have preferred a timeline in which the 2014 O's traded him for a ToR pitcher with five years of control (and then won a ring because 1983 was so long ago).

[dystopia]

58 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

What other way does this team have to acquire high caliber starting pitching in this current competitive window? 

Also, just to fact check you, Kirby put up a 4.4 fWAR season in 2023, while Strider put up a fWAR of 4.9 in 2022 and 5.5 in 2023.  (Gunnar's fWAR was 4.6 btw)

Now you can, and I'm sure will, discount the flavor of WAR that doesn't support your argument, but you might not want to ignore its existence.

 

Actually yes, when it comes to pitching, you can ignore fWAR’s existence. 

[LookinUp]

13 hours ago, Roll Tide said:

The reasons I might are John Angelos & Scott Boras

Put me in the category of stupid people who think we're extending Gunnar sometime in the next 8ish weeks.

[terpoh]

Gunnar is the heart and sole of this franchise at 22 and is "ours"

I think this one has less to do with "value" and more to do with that. He is far too important to our team and direction. 

[Can_of_corn]

11 minutes ago, terpoh said:

Gunnar is the heart and sole of this franchise at 22 and is "ours"

I think this one has less to do with "value" and more to do with that. He is far too important to our team and direction. 

I disagree.

It's kinda odd how much Adley is discounted on this board.

One of the few times I can remember a guy being more highly regarded nationally than at the team level.

[terpoh]

3 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I disagree.

It's kinda odd how much Adley is discounted on this board.

One of the few times I can remember a guy being more highly regarded nationally than at the team level.

That wasnt a slight at Adley. I look at him in the same light. They are 1a and 1b to me. They are the face of the turnaround. 

[webbrick2010]

I prefer 1 for many type trades

I would consider trading a known stud like Gunnar for 4-5 top prospects, with the hope that 1-2 become all stars, and  another becomes a regular

Don't like the risk of just getting back a single starter who could get injured and you end up with nothing

Look at we got for the Bedard trade

[dystopia]

1 minute ago, webbrick2010 said:

I prefer 1 for many type trades

I would consider trading a known stud like Gunnar for 4-5 top prospects, with the hope that 1-2 become all stars, and  another becomes a regular

Don't like the risk of just getting back a single starter who could get injured and you end up with nothing

Look at we got for the Bedard trade

This is, to put it diplomatically, insanely stupid. There is zero reason for a contending team (or hell, any team for that matter) to trade a young stud player who is under team control for several more years for prospects. The whole point of trading for prospects is so they can help build the next contending team, not trade them the minute they get promoted to the majors and start producing. 

Some folks really lose the plot. 

[jamalshw]

Having not even looked into or considered the service time differences as some others have and outlined before my comment, it's a no from me. While talent wise, it may actually be pretty close and given our surplus of young talent, it may actually make sense on some level, it's a pretty easy no from me. 

There's obviously the risk factor here with pitcher vs position player, but there's also something about a guy that was drafted (and not at the top of the 1st round) and developed internally going on to have an elite career with your organization. I think Henderson has already bonded with the fanbase. And while a 1 team career is highly unlikely in today's game, having a guy at least spend the first part of his career in an Orioles uniform is huge. If I am guaranteed that Henderson is gone in 5 more years and we won't extend him before that or try to re-sign him in Free Agency...it may sway me a bit as the question narrows to just the next handful of seasons in which case maybe a George Kirby or Spencer Strider is more valuable. It also narrows the risk as the longer the time period, the higher the risk. 

In that situation with, that guarantee, I wouldn't hate this type of trade, but even still, though, I'm keeping Henderson. He proved himself last year. While we all view Holliday as a sure thing and have high expectations for Westburg and Ortiz and Mayo (if he stays on the dirt) and even Norby to an extent...they're all still prospects and some will disappoint (that's the nature of prospects and why Elias continues to play the numbers game with them). 

And while Kirby or Strider would slide in the top of the rotation and make the rotation instantly MUCH better, I'd still rather Henderson in my lineup and a rotation of Bradish, Grayson, Means, Kremer and Wells/Irvin/Hall than the alternative. 

[jamalshw]

2 hours ago, Can_of_corn said:

I disagree.

It's kinda odd how much Adley is discounted on this board.

One of the few times I can remember a guy being more highly regarded nationally than at the team level.

I think it's an interesting conversation regarding Adley vs. Henderson. Thankfully we have both. 

I think Adley is the heart and soul of the current Orioles' team--and current face of the franchise (over Henderson), but I view Henderson has the player I want to extent between the two of them if I can only extend one (I want to see both extended). And it does have to do with age and position...and the physical toll catching takes over time.  

[Roll Tide]

3 hours ago, LookinUp said:

Put me in the category of stupid people who think we're extending Gunnar sometime in the next 8ish weeks.

I’m not putting anyone in the category, that’s the reason I’m possibly willing to deal him for a TOR.

[Satyr3206]

Even though Adley and Gunnar are on my do not trade list now, that doesn't mean they shouldn't be traded 2 to 3 years from now. If they can't be signed then at some point you have to get a return for them and restock the pipeline.