Jackson Holliday 2024

[OnlyOneOriole]

1 minute ago, Bemorewins said:

AND?

Why would I be driving around 'town' as you put it....downtown Baltimore....when I live 2300 miles away?

 

I mean....what lol?

[Sports Guy]

2 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

He had an elbow injury and he looked like a middle schooler playing against college kids when he was up here.  Not athletic. 

As a 1 and 1?  That is a concern.  A major red flag.  That is all I am saying.

 

 Not a concern.  You just  don’t know what you are looking at.

[Bemorewins]

2 minutes ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

Why would I be driving around 'town' as you put it....downtown Baltimore....when I live 2300 miles away?

 

I mean....what lol?

So then you acknowledging that there are some things that you don’t know what you are talking about.

Also, I was driving in downtown LA as well as Malibu and many other places last week.

They have these things called airplanes  

[LookitsPuck]

2 hours ago, OnlyOneOriole said:

How many 20 year old infielders have you heard of that had to be shut down because of elbow soreness?

 

It is pretty much unheard of. 

Jasson Dominguez had a UCL tear. Had to get surgery. Zach Neto had elbow inflammation. Both hella young.

Google is your friend. It’s an incredibly common injury. 

[OriolesMagic83]

Jackson was 1 for 2 yesterday with 2 walks.  Hmm,  750 OBP.  Sounds good to me.  I think what he needed more than anything was a mental break for someone who has lived and breathed baseball probably since age 3.

[interloper]

2 minutes ago, OriolesMagic83 said:

Jackson was 1 for 2 yesterday with 2 walks.  Hmm,  750 OBP.  Sounds good to me.  I think what he needed more than anything was a mental break for someone who has lived and breathed baseball probably since age 3.

Literally don't care about the walks. Cowser walked a lot - how did his .400+ AAA OBP translate to the majors? 

All I want to see is XBH from Holliday. We know he can work a walk on crappy AAA pitching. Once he hits for more consistent power, we'll know he's ready. 

[Malike]

1 minute ago, interloper said:

Literally don't care about the walks. Cowser walked a lot - how did his .400+ AAA OBP translate to the majors? 

All I want to see is XBH from Holliday. We know he can work a walk on crappy AAA pitching. Once he hits for more consistent power, we'll know he's ready. 

OBP in AAA is misleading. Guys know the strike zone thanks to ABS. They come up the ML and the strike zone they know is now in the toilet.

[interloper]

1 minute ago, Malike said:

OBP in AAA is misleading. Guys know the strike zone thanks to ABS. They come up the ML and the strike zone they know is now in the toilet.

Exactly. 

[Tony-OH]

Good Lord, somewhere I lost track of this thread only to see it derailed into 10 others subjects.

1) Please keep on the subject of Jackson Holliday
2) My thoughts on Jackson Holliday's "Athleticism." First off, Holliday has very good speed, has made some very good plays defensively while on the move, and is playing professional baseball with the best in the world, that in in of itself makes him above average athletically. Now, saying that, he's not an extreme quick twitch guy and he doesn't have that explosive first step you'd typically want in a shortstop. That combined with his below average arm was why I pretty quickly concluded that shortstop would be a stretch for him without additional physical development. 
3) The arm woes could very well be from him trying to improve his arm strength this offseason. I don't know what his routine was, but watching him lob balls around the infield tells me he was saving his arm and was kind of treating it with "kid gloves" which suggests he was not 100%. How much that has affected his hitting, I don't know, but his domination by major league pitchers was most likely not because of elbow discomfort.
4) I've said for awhile that Jackson Holliday is untouchable along with Basallo and Mayo, and I still think it would take a ton of a return that would include controllable players before I would consider moving him, but I'm starting to think he might be the guy that could get an impact return that I'd be willing to move. 

Now why would I be willing to move him? Quite simply because I would have no issue with an infield of Mayo at 3B and Westburg at 2B. Now, before people overreact here and say I'm down on Holliday, I'm not. I still think he's going to end up a very high OBP hitter with some pop and would look very good on top of this lineup one day. At no point do you give him away and he's certainly not traded for just a rental for this year, but I would listen. 

 

 

[Tony-OH]

Oh, I also saw a Jackson vs Henderson "debate" in this thread somewhere. While I think Holliday is going to be a very good player, and yes, he out produced Henderson at the same levels at a younger age, but Henderson is a physical specimen/oddity due to size, athleticism, speed and arm. He's truly a 5-tool player and is the kind of player you build your franchise around.

I see more of a solid average to above average major leaguer in Holliday when I look at the tools vs a generational talent. If I had to choose between the two, it's not even close who I would choose, but that's not a hit on Holliday, but more of shout out to the kind of talent we're watching with Gunnar. I'll be honest, he very well may be the most athletic superstar the Orioles have ever had.

If Holliday can make himself a quality second baseman or maybe even transition to CF, he's going to be a very good player at the major league level at the top of a lineup as an on base machine. If the automatic strike zone gets adopted in some form at the major league level, and I believe it will be next year, he becomes even more dangerous.

[Just Regular]

It kind of bends the brain because Gunnar is halfway to a historic season, but as a less tooled up guy, Jackson Holliday's path to being "better" than Gunnar Henderson is just plain outhitting him.

Good luck, young sir.

[vab]

19 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Oh, I also saw a Jackson vs Henderson "debate" in this thread somewhere. While I think Holliday is going to be a very good player, and yes, he out produced Henderson at the same levels at a younger age, but Henderson is a physical specimen/oddity due to size, athleticism, speed and arm. He's truly a 5-tool player and is the kind of player you build your franchise around.

I see more of a solid average to above average major leaguer in Holliday when I look at the tools vs a generational talent. If I had to choose between the two, it's not even close who I would choose, but that's not a hit on Holliday, but more of shout out to the kind of talent we're watching with Gunnar. I'll be honest, he very well may be the most athletic superstar the Orioles have ever had.

If Holliday can make himself a quality second baseman or maybe even transition to CF, he's going to be a very good player at the major league level at the top of a lineup as an on base machine. If the automatic strike zone gets adopted in some form at the major league level, and I believe it will be next year, he becomes even more dangerous.

I don't think there's any doubt about it. If they can keep him here and he can avoid a ton of injuries, he will probably be the best Oriole ever. 

[banks703]

24 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

Oh, I also saw a Jackson vs Henderson "debate" in this thread somewhere. While I think Holliday is going to be a very good player, and yes, he out produced Henderson at the same levels at a younger age, but Henderson is a physical specimen/oddity due to size, athleticism, speed and arm. He's truly a 5-tool player and is the kind of player you build your franchise around.

I see more of a solid average to above average major leaguer in Holliday when I look at the tools vs a generational talent. If I had to choose between the two, it's not even close who I would choose, but that's not a hit on Holliday, but more of shout out to the kind of talent we're watching with Gunnar. I'll be honest, he very well may be the most athletic superstar the Orioles have ever had.

If Holliday can make himself a quality second baseman or maybe even transition to CF, he's going to be a very good player at the major league level at the top of a lineup as an on base machine. If the automatic strike zone gets adopted in some form at the major league level, and I believe it will be next year, he becomes even more dangerous.

This is a very simple yet incredibly accurate post regarding the two of JH and Gunnar. I think some of our folks have blinders due to the 1:1 draft position of JH and simply cannot let go of the idea of him being this all-world superstar SS because he was drafted as a SS. Wasn't Bryce Harper drafted 1:1 .... as a catcher and got moved to the outfield? Guys get drafted high as (insert whatever position) and are given the opportunity to play themselves off of that position year in and year out. I firmly believe that this is true with JH. That approach of 'well, he's probably best suited at a different spot but it only increases the strength of the organization if he can mature into a viable SS option so let's run out that groundball' is 100% what I believe that they did with him.

I don't know how anyone who has spent time in instruction, scouting, playing above a HS level would not see the flaws in his defensive game. It's not only the arm and I agree that his elbow issues are likely from trying to increase his arm strength. I've given my opinion on what I've seen of him with my own eyes (more than 30 games worth) and I will continue to describe his SS prospects as you could stick him there (a la Manny 2018 and he won't kill you but he's never going to be the best defensive SS option. For an org like the O's who have demonstrated the importance of defense over and over and over again, they're just not going to stick weaker defender into a more important defensive role.. especially given that they have a current player there who may be the current best overall player in the game and has stated repeatedly that he views himself as a SS, wants to play SS and basically someone is going to have kill him to take it from him. 

I share your belief that JH is going to fine and will figure out how to hit at the ML level in due time. He's going to be a very productive player for a long time but barring injury too Gunnar, I just do not see him EVER getting reps as a SS in Baltimore without some form of a Manny-type scenario where back in 2018 they slid him over to SS, knowing full-well that they were going to trade him that year and simply wanted to 1. appease Manny and 2. market him as a SS at the deadline, which they did. I stand by my original statement 18 months or so back.. JH's profile is best suited as a 2B but I do not rule out a move to the OF. 

[banks703]

49 minutes ago, Just Regular said:

It kind of bends the brain because Gunnar is halfway to a historic season, but as a less tooled up guy, Jackson Holliday's path to being "better" than Gunnar Henderson is just plain outhitting him.

Good luck, young sir.

I think the average and perhaps even the OBP of JH may eventually exceed that of Gunnar but the power potential, base stealing and defense will never approach what Gunnar can do. I'd wager that in 20 years or so when we're looking back on their careers, Holliday's highest single season HR total will be somewhere in the 25 - 30 number whereas with Gunnar, good lord, who knows. He could hit 50 this year in his age 23 season with several years left before he reaches his peak. I know that we're acknowledging it but I don't think that folks quite understand what that kid is doing this year. 

[sportsfan8703]

1 hour ago, interloper said:

Literally don't care about the walks. Cowser walked a lot - how did his .400+ AAA OBP translate to the majors? 

All I want to see is XBH from Holliday. We know he can work a walk on crappy AAA pitching. Once he hits for more consistent power, we'll know he's ready. 

How much better could our hitters be when they introduce the robo ump?