Where is Our Clutch Hitting Late in Games?

[Old#5fan]

Roger Clemens got worn out one year too...

All the other clutch stuff aside...this is just such a ridiculous position to take. Honestly, ASG performance as a barometer? They get what--2-3 ABs?? Pitch maybe one inning or two innings...

It's simply stupefying--I've never once heard anybody from statheads to old-fashioned baseballers ever use ASG competition as a way to judge someone.

Serious question. Did you yourself ever play in any type of an "Allstar" game? I don't care at what level, it could even be Little League. If so, I think you would know that there is a feeling that you are out to not only prove you belong with those elite other players , but also try to compete with them. It is sort of the ultimate ego contest of who really is the best. Some of the most legendary aspects of the game are connected to an All-star game, as when Ted Williams hit that Ephus pitch out for the game winning homer. Or Cal hitting a homer in the first inning of his final AS game.

[ejf1025]

Serious question. Did you yourself ever play in an type of an "Allstar" game? I don't care at what level, it could even be Little League. If so, I think you would know that there is a feeling that you are out to not only prove you belong with those elite other players , but also try to compete with them. It is sort of the ultimate ego contest of who really is the best. Some of the most legendary aspects of the game are connected to an All-star game, as when Ted Williams hit that Ephus pitch out for the game winning homer. Or Cal hitting a homer in the first inning of his final AS game.

Yes, I have--in baseball and basketball at varying levels.

And I don't doubt that they compete, what I doubt is the great credence that you give it.

Nobody's up their trying to move runners along, work deep into the count, draw walks...they're letting it rip. Pitchers are trying to gas hitters, or fool them with their best hooks...they're not trying to induce groundouts, limit pitchcounts....These guys are playing the game completely fun and loose because it's a time for individual bragging rights.

It doesn't mean that when Michael Young goes 1-1 with a pinch-hit game-winning RBI he's suddenly better than ARod who went 0-2 and started the game.

In fact, considering that most starters are PULLED before we even get to the late innings...it's not even a fair way to judge.

Honestly, ASG production is just about the most inaccurate and stupid way to judge talent vs talent.

I've played in championship games too...have you? Because then you also would know the big F'ing difference in intensity.

[Flosman]

Serious question. Did you yourself ever play in an type of an "Allstar" game? I don't care at what level, it could even be Little League. If so, I think you would know that there is a feeling that you are out to not only prove you belong with those elite other players , but also try to compete with them. It is sort of the ultimate ego contest of who really is the best. Some of the most legendary aspects of the game are connected to an All-star game, as when Ted Williams hit that Ephus pitch out for the game winning homer. Or Cal hitting a homer in the first inning of his final AS game.

Wow, just wow.

[napbow]

Yes, I have--in baseball and basketball at varying levels..

Also, on an amatuer level most of the All-Star games are showcases for college/high school recruiting. I know they were for me.

[Old#5fan]

Yes, I have--in baseball and basketball at varying levels.

And I don't doubt that they compete, what I doubt is the great credence that you give it.

Nobody's up their trying to move runners along, work deep into the count, draw walks...they're letting it rip. Pitchers are trying to gas hitters, or fool them with their best hooks...they're not trying to induce groundouts, limit pitchcounts....These guys are playing the game completely fun and loose because it's a time for individual bragging rights.

It doesn't mean that when Michael Young goes 1-1 with a pinch-hit game-winning RBI he's suddenly better than ARod who went 0-2 and started the game.

In fact, considering that most starters are PULLED before we even get to the late innings...it's not even a fair way to judge.

Honestly, ASG production is just about the most inaccurate and stupid way to judge talent vs talent.

I've played in championship games too...have you? Because then you also would know the big F'ing difference in intensity.

I cannot say I ever played in any championship contest although I coached at various levels (Grade School to Middle School age kids) but I know that for some people an Allstar game is a central event in their lives where they are with the cream of the crop and view it as a high honor, not something to just go through the motions. Furthermore, HS AS games are frequently scouted in various sports so I know the intensity level is high for a lot of the players.

[Tank]

The only thing players care about during an all-star game is showing off their own abilities. There is no correlation to clutch and late hitting.

[ejf1025]

Also, on an amatuer level most of the All-Star games are showcases for college/high school recruiting. I know they were for me.

Good point, and to be honest, I still wasnt really playing the game right in All-Star games.

In baseball, I was sitting on fastballs trying to hit it a country-mile. I wasn't trying to go the other way, or move anyone over...in basketball, I was trying to nail 3s and make nice no-looks.

Was I trying hard--better believe it. But I was definitely aware that I was playing "outside" myself so to speak the whole time. I was trying to show-up my buddies, get a little bragging rights....

I knew it really didnt matter...as opposed to real games.

I think almost anyone whose played in both felt the difference.

[blueberryale77]

I cannot say I ever played in any championship contest although I coached at various levels (Grade School to Middle School age kids) but I know that for some people an Allstar game is a central event in their lives where they are with the cream of the crop and view it as a high honor, not something to just go through the motions. Furthermore, HS AS games are frequently scouted in various sports so I know the intensity level is high for a lot of the players.

Were you citing Michael Young's statistics in a high school all-star game? Anyway regardless of level, All-Star games are an individual honor/opportunity; baseball is a team sport. Performing better in All-Star games than regular games with one's own team is if anything more likely to correlate with concern for contracts and women than with being a great, honorable clutch player.

[ejf1025]

I cannot say I ever played in any championship contest although I coached at various levels (Grade School to Middle School age kids) but I know that for some people an Allstar game is a central event in their lives where they are with the cream of the crop and view it as a high honor, not something to just go through the motions. Furthermore, HS AS games are frequently scouted in various sports so I know the intensity level is high for a lot of the players.

Well your All-star games were different then mine.

Everyone cared because they wanted to beat the best--sure. They were always competitive. They just weren't playing the game to get a team win. You were playing to show how good you were...how hard you threw, how fast you were, how well you hit.

Nobody was showing they could go the other way on a hit & run, or protect a big lead by pitching to contact, or taking extra time to hold a runner...

And they def weren't some central event that defined ones ability and life--good Lord.

I had some terrible ASGs and some really good ones. I really dont think you could extrapolate much from those performances.

[DrungoHazewood]

Wow, someone is actually arguing that All Star games mean something? Oh... of course he is.

All Star performances are exactly as meaningful as any one-game samples of exhibitions played in mid-July with substitution rules cobbled together from the diaries of amphetamine addicts. On my personal list of meaningful things I put All Star performances right above batting average against A-ball pitchers in the annual Hall of Fame game, and just below free throw percentage in those pre-season college exhibitions against barnstorming teams.

[Mashed Potatoes]

I have a question for those of you who choose to interact with Oldfan, when all is said and done, the thread dies, his argument has been beaten to the ground, morphed, beaten again, and then he sticks with it anyway, do you feel like it was worth the effort?

Are you happy you participated in the exchange?

[Old#5fan]

Wow, someone is actually arguing that All Star games mean something? Oh... of course he is.

All Star performances are exactly as meaningful as any one-game samples of exhibitions played in mid-July with substitution rules cobbled together from the diaries of amphetamine addicts. On my personal list of meaningful things I put All Star performances right above batting average against A-ball pitchers in the annual Hall of Fame game, and just below free throw percentage in those pre-season college exhibitions against barnstorming teams.

So the famous performance by Carl Hubbel where he struck out (what was it, seven in a row including the famous murder's row of the Yankees including Ruth, Gehrig, Dickey, Dimaggio, Hank Greenberg and Jimmy Foxx (if I remember right) means nothing to you? I recall reading this when I was a kid and was simply amazed at that feat. It seemed superhuman to me and almost beyond comprehension that any pitcher would be able to do this.

It could only happen though in an Allstar game where a pitcher got to face such a mighty and legendary lineup of HOFERS. Yet to you it is meaningless eh? Are you really a lover of the game and its history or just its stats? (Just curious.) Myself as a lover of major league baseball I think the AS game is one of its hallmarks. I guess maybe interleague play has caused the younger fans not to care about it anymore. Kind of sad really.

[Mackus]

I have a question for those of you who choose to interact with Oldfan, when all is said and done, the thread dies, his argument has been beaten to the ground, morphed, beaten again, and then he sticks with it anyway, do you feel like it was worth the effort?

Are you happy you participated in the exchange?

If the OH is a tennis court, and the posters are tennis players, then OldFan is a brick wall you hit the ball against when nobody else is around to play. You can't change the brick wall, but you can get some practice in, even though its not as good as practicing against a real person.

Although I no longer respond to him, so I can't entirely answer your question.

[Maverick2143]

So the famous performance by Carl Hubbel where he struck out (what was it, seven in a row including the famous murder's row of the Yankees including Ruth, Gehrig, Dickey, Dimaggio, Hank Greenberg and Jimmy Foxx (if I remember right) means nothing to you? I recall reading this when I was a kid and was simply amazed at that feat. It could only happen though in an Allstar game where a pitcher got to face such a mighty and legendary lineup of HOFERS. Yet to you it is meaningless eh? Are you really a lover of the game and its history or just its stats? (Just curious.) Myself as a lover of major league baseball I think the AS game is one of its hallmarks. I guess maybe interleague play has caused the younger fans not to care about it anymore. Kind of sad really.

I am starting to run out of different Tony Clifton pictures.

[ejf1025]

So the famous performance by Carl Hubbel where he struck out (what was it, seven in a row including the famous murder's row of the Yankees including Ruth, Gehrig, Dickey, Dimaggio, Hank Greenberg and Jimmy Foxx (if I remember right) means nothing to you? I recall reading this when I was a kid and was simply amazed at that feat. It could only happen though in an Allstar game where a pitcher got to face such a mighty and legendary lineup of HOFERS. Yet to you it is meaningless eh? Are you really a lover of the game and its history or just its stats? (Just curious.) Myself as a lover of major league baseball I think the AS game is one of its hallmarks. I guess maybe interleague play has caused the younger fans not to care about it anymore. Kind of sad really.

Nobody is saying they don't mean anything. I think most fans LOVE the All-Star Game. I used to tape them every year, and watch them live with my Dad with a big burger and fries.

I remember Bo Jackson in Anaheim, I remember Cal's entire weekend in Toronto, Pudge's double getting stuck in the LF wall at OPACY...

But that doesn't mean that the best All-Star game performances come from the best players.

I hope you consider Hubble the greatest pitcher of all time by this barometer.