Where is Our Clutch Hitting Late in Games?

[Old#5fan]

Seriously the problem is not what you are saying it is. In this very thread you have on multiple occasions slandered the best player on the team I love. Nick is as of today the Best player the O's have and honestly the best player we have had in a long while. You have said that he is dogging it because of his "fat LT deal", his "cute wife", you have said he is a choke artist and I have probably left off a couple of your BS comments. You have found one split that for over a 20 AB period he has bad numbers in and used it to support your crap that I posted above. You, when presented evidence that the 20 ABs where likely a statistical abberration and he is still the best hitter on the club and likely the guy you would want up there if you life depended on it. You keep saying no i would want this guy or that guy and even when proven you are absolutely clueless you act like we do not get it. I will say if DT would rather have Mora up there than Nick in any important situation AM should fire him the second he finds out, even in the middle of the game if necessary, But DT does not think that even though you represented that to be the case.

Nick is the guy you want up there in ANY f'ing situation in any game, period. AJ is making that a close call and might force a change to that answer in a very short time. But the track record is not there yet for AJ but he is making a very strong case. You act has if the 20 ABs should change that. Let me know when he puts up those numbers over 100+abs in that situation.

I don't know why I bother to respond to this and this will be my last for a while as I have better things to do, but as a fan I don't think Nick Markakis is the best hitter, player or best anything on this team right now nor has he ever been. I have given my reasons and if you disagree fine. No need to hate on me for it but he is certainly not the guy I want up right now with the game on the line.

I would prefer Jones in the field and either Jones, Huff and possibly Mora up in game winning situations this season. I will say I think Marakis is the best hitter on the team in the first inning but that may change as well, just as hopefully his Close and Late Hitting will only for the better.

Again, I am talking about this point in the season, not for his future career, a point that is being missed big time in this discussion. I also feel that he is grossly overated and has been on this site for quite a while. If some of you had ever seen Frank Robinson in his prime, you would not be so over-infatuated with Markakis.

Frank was the best clutch hitter I have ever seen in an Orioles uniform, a Triple Crown Winner, and had the best base running instincts I have ever seen and not a shabby glove either. He could in fact, do it all.

[Burg]

I don't know why I bother to respond to this and this will be my last for a while as I have better things to do,

No you don't. You LIVE for this. And why you are continually allowed to do this is beyond me but I'm sure Tony, et al. have a reason.

If some of you had ever seen Frank Robinson in his prime, you would not be so over-infatuated with Markakis.

Complete and utter nonsense.

[Flosman]

I don't know why I bother to respond to this and this will be my last for a while as I have better things to do, but as a fan I don't think Nick Markakis is the best hitter, player or best anything on this team right now nor has he ever been. I have given my reasons and if you disagree fine. No need to hate on me for it but he is certainly not the guy I want up right now with the game on the line.

I would prefer Jones in the field and either Jones, Huff and possibly Mora up in game winning situations this season. I will say I think Marakis is the best hitter on the team in the first inning but that may change as well, just as hopefully his Close and Late Hitting will only for the better. Again, I am talking about this point in the season, not for his future career, a point that is being missed big time in this discussion.

Ditto for me on the first bolded part. The second is were people have a problem with you. The actual numbers say Nick is the best player on the team. It has been shown to you a 1000 times and you refuse to even say anything like you have a point. But the real problem is that you take a small sample when it agrees with your position and act as if it proves your right. It has been shown that hitters generally hit near there actual levels in any situation providing you look at a big enough sample. Being has though Nick has the best numbers he is the best bet in any situation no matter what he has done over the past 20 selected ABs. We are not talking about a guy that has been slumping and might just not have it right now (i.e. Wiggington) we are talking about a guy that has been raking all season. The split abberration you hang on to has the true evidence is simply something in the noise of the normal distribution of data in a data set.

[ejf1025]

I don't know why I bother to respond to this and this will be my last for a while as I have better things to do, but as a fan I don't think Nick Markakis is the best hitter, player or best anything on this team right now nor has he ever been. I have given my reasons and if you disagree fine. No need to hate on me for it but he is certainly not the guy I want up right now with the game on the line.

I would prefer Jones in the field and either Jones, Huff and possibly Mora up in game winning situations this season. I will say I think Marakis is the best hitter on the team in the first inning but that may change as well, just as hopefully his Close and Late Hitting will only for the better.

Again, I am talking about this point in the season, not for his future career, a point that is being missed big time in this discussion. I also feel that he is grossly overated and has been on this site for quite a while. If some of you had ever seen Frank Robinson in his prime, you would not be so over-infatuated with Markakis.

Frank was the best clutch hitter I have ever seen in an Orioles uniform, a Triple Crown Winner, and had the best base running instincts I have ever seen and not a shabby glove either. He could in fact, do it all.

It's like a car wreck, I can't help myself...

But this post is your problem.

I'm not sure anyone has ever claimed Nick Markakis is better than Frank Robinson...and at this point, it is ludicrous to even try and compare the two.

This team hasn't had a great player in many, many years. To argue Nick Markakis is not great is simply stupid--as there is literally no statistical evidence to support that. And to act the way you are--tearing him down directly and indirectly is a shame.

To argue he is a Hall of Famer is equally stupid as he has much much more to do to even enter the Frank/Brooks/Kakes/Cal/Eddie conversation. So pointing out his struggles in the clutch this season and expressing concern has some merit.

However, your constant mixed positions, ignoring of some stats, embracement of others, trumpeting of Michael Young, Damon, Boone (for crying out loud!), latent sexism, pimping of ASG performance, lamenting new player attitudes and the rise of the long term contract is what infuriates everyone. They are tangential with little train of logic, yet you apply them so readily in your on-going mission to show that Nick Markakis is "grossly overrated" and not in the same league as your childhood heroes.

If you're just talking about this season (as you've tried to claim over and over when evidence clearly stacks up against you outside of 20 ABs), then why do you insist on comparing with the past?

You sound petty, silly, overly-nostalgic, and incredibly biased in your love of the great O's from your youth, and quite frankly are acting like a jealous, possesive child--unwilling to concede that anyone can stack up to their favorite players.

So, fine. You want to say Nick is butchering it in the late innings this year...fair enough. But don't think people can't contextualize what you are trying to do with your ramblings about Frank, All-Star games past, him being "grossly overrated" et al.

[Flosman]

I don't know why I bother to respond to this and this will be my last for a while as I have better things to do, but as a fan I don't think Nick Markakis is the best hitter, player or best anything on this team right now nor has he ever been. I have given my reasons and if you disagree fine. No need to hate on me for it but he is certainly not the guy I want up right now with the game on the line.

I would prefer Jones in the field and either Jones, Huff and possibly Mora up in game winning situations this season. I will say I think Marakis is the best hitter on the team in the first inning but that may change as well, just as hopefully his Close and Late Hitting will only for the better.

Again, I am talking about this point in the season, not for his future career, a point that is being missed big time in this discussion. I also feel that he is grossly overated and has been on this site for quite a while. If some of you had ever seen Frank Robinson in his prime, you would not be so over-infatuated with Markakis.

Frank was the best clutch hitter I have ever seen in an Orioles uniform, a Triple Crown Winner, and had the best base running instincts I have ever seen and not a shabby glove either. He could in fact, do it all.

So I get it and agree at this point I would rather have FRobby in his prime come up than Nick today. Just tell me WTF it has to do with you saying you would rather have Huff or Mora come up instead of Nick. You have made a tremendous red herring argument. We would almost all agree that we would rather have Pujols at bat than our Nick, Also Arod, Bonds, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, etc., etc.

[Old#5fan]

So I get it and agree at this point I would rather have FRobby in his prime come up than Nick today. Just tell me WTF it has to do with you saying you would rather have Huff or Mora come up instead of Nick. You have made a tremendous red herring argument. We would almost all agree that we would rather have Pujols at bat than our Nick, Also Arod, Bonds, Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, etc., etc.

Fair enough question.

Part A:I brought up Frank Robinson to point out how and why I think Markakis is overated here. He is spoken of as being great, this, great that, etc. yet he really has done nothing great (yet) for an entire season say in the context of what I would consider true greateness, as in a slice of Frank Robinson in his prime. I mean Frank was a prenieniel league leader in many hitting stats as well as an Allstar, and won an MVP in each league. Markakis has well, so far won nothing, not even an All-star nomination.

Part B: Me wanting Jones, up instead of Nick in a C&L situation is merely because he is raking the ball at any point in the game. Me wanting Huff or Mora right now over Nick in C&L situations only has to do with the current dismal production out of Markakis in those situations. Although niether Mora nor Huff are doing much either, I think they are more seasoned and if I have three players slumping in a certain part of the game at the same time, I would prefer having the more seasoned guy up under pressure. That is all there is to it. No more, no less.

Finally, as I have stated repeatedly, Markakis I indeed would prefer more than any Oriole to be batting early in the game as that seems to be when he is at his best, again so far this season.

[Frobby]

I was just going by what DT was saying at a press conference the other day on MASN. He was saying Melvin is a great hitter with RISP and he was really missed when he was on the DL and he hoped he would soon get back on track as the great clutch hitter he is.

So I guess I shouldn't listen to what DT spouts anymore eh as apparently he also doesn't seem to know what he is talking about either?

I heard those remarks by DT. I will say this, in the time DT has been the manager, Mora has hit well in RISP situations, so that is how he thinks of him. And I do think that sometimes a player gets on a roll, sometimes for a whole season, where he is very confident in those situations. Look at Miggy's MVP year in Oakland, or his first year in Baltimore. You'd think he was the most clutch player who ever lived based on those seasons. But other years, he really struggled in those same situations.

And by the way, remember DT has a degree in sports psychology. He WANTS Mora to think he's a great clutch run producer when he is at the plate. If DT says it to the press, and Mora hears it, it helps Mora believe it is true.

[Flosman]

Fair enough question.

Part A:I brought up Frank Robinson to point out how and why I think Markakis is overated here. He is spoken of as being great, this, great that, etc. yet he really has done nothing great (yet) for an entire season say in the context of what I would consider true greateness, as in a slice of Frank Robinson in his prime. I mean Frank was a prenieniel league leader in many hitting stats as well as an Allstar, and won an MVP in each league. Markakis has well, so far won nothing, not even an All-star nomination.

Part B: Me wanting Jones, up instead of Nick in a C&L situation is merely because he is raking the ball at any point in the game. Me wanting Huff or Mora right now over Nick in C&L situations only has to do with the current dismal production out of Markakis in those situations. Although niether Mora nor Huff are doing much either, I think they are more seasoned and if I have three players slumping in a certain part of the game at the same time, I would prefer having the more seasoned guy up under pressure. That is all there is to it. No more, no less.

Finally, as I have stated repeatedly, Markakis I indeed would prefer more than any Oriole to be batting early in the game as that seems to be when he is at his best, again so far this season.

A simple question: Does what he has done over the entire course of his career or even just last year figure into the equation for you more or less than what he has done over the first month of this season, when deciding who you want up there with the game on the line tonight?

[ejf1025]

Fair enough question.

Part A:I brought up Frank Robinson to point out how and why I think Markakis is overated here. He is spoken of as being great, this, great that, etc. yet he really has done nothing great (yet) for an entire season say in the context of what I would consider true greateness, as in a slice of Frank Robinson in his prime. I mean Frank was a prenieniel league leader in many hitting stats as well as an Allstar, and won an MVP in each league. Markakis has well, so far won nothing, not even an All-star nomination.

Part B: Me wanting Jones, up instead of Nick in a C&L situation is merely because he is raking the ball at any point in the game. Me wanting Huff or Mora right now over Nick in C&L situations only has to do with the current dismal production out of Markakis in those situations. Although niether Mora nor Huff are doing much either, I think they are more seasoned and if I have three players slumping in a certain part of the game at the same time, I would prefer having the more seasoned guy up under pressure. That is all there is to it. No more, no less.

Finally, as I have stated repeatedly, Markakis I indeed would prefer more than any Oriole to be batting early in the game as that seems to be when he is at his best, again so far this season.

Yea, Nick Markakis unfortunately doesn't stack up to possibly one of the top 10 greatest players to ever live....what a loser!

If only he had a little Johnny Damon, Michael Young in him, then we'd really be talking :rolleyestf:

BTW...here's how Nick stacks up in OPS for his first 3 full seasons as compared to our other HOF hitters save Frank...

Nick- .799, .848, .897

Brooks- .597, .769, .730 (actually your hero here never in his whole career topped Nick's 3rd season OPS)

Cal- .792, .888, .884 (hmm...Nick takes 2 of 3 there too)

Eddie- .803, .836, .844 (Nick again, 2 of 3)

Is he better than them? No.

Will he be better than them? He's got a shot, although the odds--like HOF careers--are long.

Needless to say, he's more than holding his own compared to some other "greats" not named Frank Robinson. Maybe you can find it in your heart to excuse him for not stepping into the league and hammering out back to back .900+ OPS seasons like Frank (he did beat Frank's 3rd season tho .897 vs .854...and while early is on pace to clip him again in their 4th season)

[Old#5fan]

A simple question: Does what he has done over the entire course of his career or even just last year figure into the equation for you more or less than what he has done over the first month of this season, when deciding who you want up there with the game on the line tonight?

To be honest with you I paid little attention to the start of Markakis career as he quite honestly just didn't impress me much from the outset. In fact, at first I thought maybe they messed up with this guy and should have tried him as a pitcher! :laughlol: He started to grow on me though by his second season but irritated me some when his hitting dropped off whenever he was moved to the third slot last season.

As far as looking at what he has done in the past I personally see him as two different hitters. One is above league average by a fair margin in the two slot and below average to average in the third spot. This is why I very much would like to see him switch with Jones. I just think he feels less pressure hitting second for some reason.

He also seems to hit better this season early in games and my guess would be he is simply more relaxed at the plate possibly, but who really knows but him? So to me the jury is still out on him as a third hitter, but I think he has already proven to be an ideal two hitter.

As to his problem with C&L hitting this season, I admitted I was joking about the Fat LT contract and new wife but there is always some element of truth in humor. I do find Roberts performance so far after getting the Fat LT contract and new wife much more disturbing as I actually am questioning his efforts. Not so with Nick. I know he is trying his best, possibly too hard to live up to his Fat LT contract and impress his new wife (just kidding).:laughlol:

[ejf1025]

To be honest with you I paid little attention to the start of Markakis career as he quite honestly just didn't impress me from the outset. He started to grow on me though by his second season but irritated me some when his hitting dropped of whenever he was moved to the third slot last season.

As far as looking at what he has done in the past I personally see him as two different hitters. One is above league average by a fair margin in the two slot and below average to average in the third spot. This is why I very much would like to see him switch with Jones. I just think he feels less pressure hitting second for some reason. He also seems to hit better this season early in games and my guess would be he is simply more relaxed at the plate possibly, but who really knows but him?

He is OPS 1.000+ in the 3 spot! HOW ON EARTH IS THAT BELOW AVERAGE???

If you want to say he is struggling in the clutch this year, fine. But to go anywhere other than that is unfounded. Stop looking for holes that aren't there.

You keep saying you are ONLY talking about late game situations this year, but keep straying beyond that position and wind up with no evidence to support yourself.

[Mackus]

Frank Robinson

High leverage situations: 99 OPS+

Medium leverage situations: 95 OPS+

Low leverage situations: 106 OPS+

Tie game: 89 OPS+

Within 1 run: 92 OPS+

Within 2 runs: 95 OPS+

Within 3 runs: 98 OPS+

Within 4 runs: 97 OPS+

5 or greater: 127 OPS+

The original blowout stat-padder! The closer the game was, the worse he played. What a choke artist!

[blueberryale77]

Can traffic cops hand out tickets for "aiding and abetting" reckless drivers?

Every time someone is cited for reckless driving in Maryland, Nick Markakis and Brian Roberts should both be fined for causing the recklessness by infuriating the drivers with their poor performance in the clutch so far this year. Eventually, it will eat up their fat contracts, their hot wives will leave them, and then they'll be able to hit in the clutch, the Orioles will win constantly and perhaps more importantly send lots of players to the All-Star game to prove how clutch they are, and reckless driving will cease to exist in Birdland.

[Old#5fan]

Frank Robinson

High leverage situations: 99 OPS+

Medium leverage situations: 95 OPS+

Low leverage situations: 106 OPS+

Tie game: 89 OPS+

Within 1 run: 92 OPS+

Within 2 runs: 95 OPS+

Within 3 runs: 98 OPS+

Within 4 runs: 97 OPS+

5 or greater: 127 OPS+

The original blowout stat-padder!

Did you ever think his stats were a main reason for a lot of those blowouts? I mean how many times has any current Oriole hit two grand slams in a game? I missed Jim Gentile do it but I saw Frank!:clap3:

[Old#5fan]

He is OPS 1.000+ in the 3 spot! HOW ON EARTH IS THAT BELOW AVERAGE???

If you want to say he is struggling in the clutch this year, fine. But to go anywhere other than that is unfounded. Stop looking for holes that aren't there.

You keep saying you are ONLY talking about late game situations this year, but keep straying beyond that position and wind up with no evidence to support yourself.

Is that this year or career wise? I know he struggled though last year as DT kept moving he and Mora between the third and second spot primarily because Mora was out producing him with RISP. That did occur, I just didn't dream it up either.