Viviano Show Question O's/Phils

[Old#5fan]

Um....explain your claim as to why he's the next Frank Robinson??

A claim based on what I gather was made purely on three facts: 1) they are both strong 2) they are both Orioles and 3) they are both black.

Because that's just about all they have in common.

I think all I posted was he had the potential to be the next Frank as physically he resembles him a bit.

[Old#5fan]

A LITTLE GUY?!

6'2 195 is little? You are insane.

Compared to Werth he is. Compared to my son Markakis is little as well. My son is 6"7 tall. I myself am 6 foot and 195 and yes, I am a little dude!:laughlol:

[ejf1025]

Who cares about his career as that is not what this dicussion is even about. It is about who on the Orioles roster right NOW would replace a Phillie in the WS if Charlie Manuel could choose. That is the topic.

Well....if we are shrinking sample size.

I believe Werth's most recent trip to the bases resulted in getting picked off.

So....by your logic....he's not really doing much out there to prove himself a "vastly superior" baserunner

[Crazysilver03]

Who cares about his career as that is not what this dicussion is even about. It is about who on the Orioles roster right NOW would replace a Phillie in the WS if Charlie Manuel could choose. That is the topic.

No it is not.

Which starters on the Orioles would start on the Phillies?

That is the question. You added the qualifier of "in the WS if Charlie Manuel could choose."

[Old#5fan]

Well....if we are shrinking sample size.

I believe Werth's most recent trip to the bases resulted in getting picked off.

So....by your logic....he's not really doing much out there to prove himself a "vastly superior" baserunner

He got picked off by a hellofa play by Molina. He also was trying to steal a base something the ultra conservative Markakis seems unwilling to even try this past season. You have to be willing to take a big enough lead to sometimes get picked off if you wanna be a base stealer unless you have blazing speed.

[Frobby]

This debate about Werth and Markakis seems silly to me. If we're talking about 2009, Werth had the better year, hands down. If we're talking about which player you'd rather have from 2010 until the end of their careers, it has to be Markakis, who is far younger and not yet in his prime, whereas Werth will be past his prime in a couple of years. If you are talking the next 2-3 years only, then it's debatable either way. It depends whether you think Werth will keep performing at 2009 levels or is likely to slip in that time frame, and whether you think Markakis will stagnate at his 2009 level or go back to his 2007-08 level and beyond. I'd vote for Markakis for the next 2-3 years, but it's debatable.

[Old#5fan]

This debate about Werth and Markakis seems silly to me. If we're talking about 2009, Werth had the better year, hands down. If we're talking about which player you'd rather have from 2010 until the end of their careers, it has to be Markakis, who is far younger and not yet in his prime, whereas Werth will be past his prime in a couple of years. If you are talking the next 2-3 years only, then it's debatable either way. It depends whether you think Werth will keep performing at 2009 levels or is likely to slip in that time frame, and whether you think Markakis will stagnate at his 2009 level or go back to his 2007-08 level and beyond. I'd vote for Markakis for the next 2-3 years, but it's debatable.

Yes, we were talking about who on the Orioles roster would be good enough to replace a Phillie in their starting lineup in the WS. Since I said only Wieters, I get bombarded with Markakis career comparison to Werth which is not even what the argument is about. It is Werth hands down who I want in the lineup against the Yankees. It isn't even an argument yet people want to try to make Markakis appear better than he really is right now.

[Miller192]

Right now, I'm a better hitter than Ted Williams.

[SilentJames]

Did it ever cross you mind the reason Markakis never got picked off is the guy takes a lead like your grandmother would (about two steps) and is about as dangerous a threat to steal as Matt Wieters? :laughlol:

Werth is a vastly superior base runner in speed, steals, percentage of steals without being caught. Markakis probably has more infield hits though as he has an extra step towards first in batting lefthanded.

WHAT?!

SO even though I just proved that Markakis is better at taking the extra base, and scoring from first or second on singles. Even though he has done this more times in his career than Werth and proven that he is in fact a better runner of bases in MANY categories...you are just choosing to ignore that and go off of your two stats and your own perverted belief that Werth is "faster" because his "legs are longer". WHAT?

I mean I should know not to question your logic, because it is so infallible.

but I do not know how you can honestly sit here and have people tell you how wrong you are using numbers and facts and math and still say no.

You are denying that 64 is larger than 38.

When you have player x, who takes more bases on singles, and is more likely to score from second on a single. Why is that, because he is the BETTER BASERUNNER!

Werth is the better base-stealer, but that does not mean he is a better base-runner.

ALso, OLDFAN, all of those stats I used in my original post are FROM 2009. ONly the one I singled out as a career number was a career number.

Werth had a better year, but you are making assumptions that are flat out false and don't have the stats to back them up.

[Crazysilver03]

Yes, we were talking about who on the Orioles roster would be good enough to replace a Phillie in their starting lineup in the WS. Since I said only Wieters, I get bombarded with Markakis career comparison to Werth which is not even what the argument is about. It is Werth hands down who I want in the lineup against the Yankees. It isn't even an argument yet people want to try to make Markakis appear better than he really is right now.

Once again, you are the only one talking about that. The question posed was overall, not in the WS.

[Mooreisbetter27]

Did it ever cross you mind the reason Markakis never got picked off is the guy takes a lead like your grandmother would (about two steps) and is about as dangerous a threat to steal as Matt Wieters? :laughlol:

Werth is a vastly superior base runner in speed, steals, percentage of steals without being caught. Markakis probably has more infield hits though as he has an extra step towards first in batting lefthanded.

[mweb]

Oldfan is right about Werth being better than Nick at the moment. He was actually much better this year. Better defensively too.

[ejf1025]

He got picked off by a hellofa play by Molina. He also was trying to steal a base something the ultra conservative Markakis seems unwilling to even try this past season. You have to be willing to take a big enough lead to sometimes get picked off if you wanna be a base stealer unless you have blazing speed.

LOL.

Oh ok...so let's see...

The original question was who on the O's would start for the Phillies...you qualified this by saying in this World Series as chosen by Charlie Manuel and/or Philly fans. You then further broke this down by using selective PAST stats and your own limited observations (which you openly admit were 9 or so games this year and some last year) of the PAST to inform us that RIGHT NOW Jayson Werth is a vastly superior baserunner.

You've ignored James incredibly relevant and far more useful data and bestowed upon us nuggets of reason like: he's taller and has longer strides, he takes bigger leads (not sure if this is because he's taller or more aggressive, you seem to be saying both...all based off maybe 20 some games where you've probably seen him take a lead about 15-20 times)...

THEN

When someone relents and uses your "right now" criteria...it's pointed out that Werth got picked off last night...so "right now" he's not all that great...you then qualify this by saying Molina made a great play (fine) and then want us to use your assumption that Markakis wouldn't have taken as big a lead because he's shorter, slower and less aggressive...

I tell you what...to help you out one more time...here's a revision of the question:

In tomorrow's World Series would Charlie Manuel select Jayson Werth to run over Nick Markakis in a stolen base situation if the metrics of most stolen bases, steals success rate and player's height were the only things available to him to help make the decision...?

Yes, yes he would. You've solved the case OldFan.

[Old#5fan]

WHAT?!

SO even though I just proved that Markakis is better at taking the extra base, and scoring from first or second on singles. Even though he has done this more times in his career than Werth and proven that he is in fact a better runner of bases in MANY categories...you are just choosing to ignore that and go off of your two stats and your own perverted belief that Werth is "faster" because his "legs are longer". WHAT?

I mean I should know not to question your logic, because it is so infallible.

but I do not know how you can honestly sit here and have people tell you how wrong you are using numbers and facts and math and still say no.

You are denying that 64 is larger than 38.

When you have player x, who takes more bases on singles, and is more likely to score from second on a single. Why is that, because he is the BETTER BASERUNNER!

Werth is the better base-stealer, but that does not mean he is a better base-runner.

ALso, OLDFAN, all of those stats I used in my original post are FROM 2009. ONly the one I singled out as a career number was a career number.

Werth had a better year, but you are making assumptions that are flat out false and don't have the stats to back them up.

The only thing I am saying and will until Hell freezes over that right now, if I am Charlie Manual and I have a choice of players from the Orioles starting lineup to replace a man in the Phillies starting lineup in this WS it would be Matt Wieters. I wouldn't even consider replacing Werth with Markakis.

[ejf1025]

Oldfan is right about Werth being better than Nick at the moment. He was actually much better this year. Better defensively too.

That's not his claim...he's claiming he's vastly better baserunner. Based on nothing really...