Viviano Show Question O's/Phils

[Mackus]

Look at his first post and how that was responded to. That's clearly a who said it issue and not what was said. I bet if simply said he thought Werth was a better runner based on steals and left it at that, he'd still be getting bashed for that first comment. Yes, after that, his base-running comments went too far, I agree. His comments on that were no more wrong or absurd than some of the one's showing how Markakis is a better player than Werth though.

Someone could easily show that Werth had a better season than Markakis this year. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player, though. Just that he had the better year.

I think Nick is the better player, and if I had to pick which one I think will have the better season next year, I'd choose Nick. UZR does seem to love Werth defensively though, having him at a 35 UZR/150 in both 2007 and 2008 although he was only at 4 this year. Werth has more power, but Markakis' better hitting raises his OBP above Werth to make him the overall better hitter. Of course if last year wasn't an aberration and becomes a pattern for Nick, which I highly doubt, then things will be very different.

[mweb]

A lot of OFers had better years than Nick this year...he wasn't all that great.

However, its highly unlikely that I would trade Nick for most, if any, of those OFers

I agree largely due to age and contracts.

[TonySoprano]

I don't understand why so many people bother arguing with oldfan on the subject of Markakis. For some, maybe the back and forth helps them refine their debating skills. For others, it could be a need to be a part of the in-crowd, even if it means carrying torches and pitchforks.

His position is so outside the spectrum that it's either a deliberate parody meant to incite or one day he woke and went downstairs to find Markakis urinating in his Wheaties. Either way, he's deadset in his opinion, so nothing will change.

Excuse me for pointing out the obvious. Carry on.

[Mackus]

His position is so outside the spectrum that it's either a deliberate parody...

Excellent description but your scope is off. His entire posting history is a deliberate parody, IMO.

[ejf1025]

I don't understand why so many people bother arguing with oldfan on the subject of Markakis. For some, maybe the back and forth helps them refine their debating skills. For others, it could be a need to be a part of the in-crowd, even if it means carrying torches and pitchforks.

His position is so outside the spectrum that it's either a deliberate parody meant to incite or one day he woke and went downstairs to find Markakis urinating in his Wheaties. Either way, he's deadset in his opinion, so nothing will change.

Excuse me for pointing out the obvious. Carry on.

Ha. I like. And I'm a culprit.

Literally, Markakis could OPS 3000 and OldFan would somehow spin it negatively.

[mweb]

Someone could easily show that Werth had a better season than Markakis this year. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a better player, though. Just that he had the better year.

I think Nick is the better player, and if I had to pick which one I think will have the better season next year, I'd choose Nick. UZR does seem to love Werth defensively though, having him at a 35 UZR/150 in both 2007 and 2008 although he was only at 4 this year. Werth has more power, but Markakis' better hitting raises his OBP above Werth to make him the overall better hitter. Of course if last year wasn't an aberration and becomes a pattern for Nick, which I highly doubt, then things will be very different.

That's fine, but the original question isn't about who you'd take going forward, it's about right now. For this season, Werth was much better, so Markakis wouldn't replace him in the Phillies lineup for this season or in the WS.

Not sure about Nick being the better overall hitter either unless you consider his 2008 numbers a true reflection on his hitting. Werth's OBP was easily better in 2007 and 2009.

Going forward, it's an interesting debate, I'd take Nick on my team primarily due to age and contract. But just for next year, I'd probably go with Werth.

[mweb]

Well, I didn't respond to his first post.

Maybe if, when the subject of Markakis comes up, he would be able to control himself and just leave it at "I'd take Werth," I'd be more willing to cut him some slack.

The fact is nobody knows if that first comment would have been left alone, because OldFan himself takes the conversation to another level.

We do know if it would have been left alone, because it wasn't, even before the fielding remarks. And plenty of follow up posts against him had nothing to do with fielding. It's not just about him controlling himself either, you and others went beyond normal rebuttal in this thread.

And the I'd take Werth is what he said at first, there was no shot at Nick. If people didn't incorrectly say he was totally wrong, it most likely would have been left at that.

[Old#5fan]

Fine...I accept your points. Scottie brought up baserunning...OldFan's rebuttal was overstated--and that's being kind.

However, I am not going to buy this "who stated" it argument. OldFan makes his bed and needs to lie in it. When you come out as adamantly and with such conviction as he does...you leave little room for discussion or amending positions.

Making statements like he's "vastly superior"--you should be able to back it up. Using steals and steals% has almost as many holes as career HRs....the numbers James clearly show that Markakis is not "conservative" on the bases and is more productive then Werth when he is on base. Is that a be all end all argument...no. But it certainly shows that OldFan's claims of being vastly inferior and ultra-conservative are just wrong.

When he does this, it is perfectly legitimate to question the source and cite examples where he did something similar--use a small sample size to justify his own personal preference.

Furthermore, especially in the case of his anti-Markakis position, it is a disservice to take this "analysis" at face value and not question that it is based on some inherent biased.

This man clearly dislikes Markakis, it has clearly become personal (questioning his marriage and his ability as a husband...I don't even think he ever apologized)....and will jump at any opportunity to try and turn a micro argument into a macro view of him.

He could have left it at I would take Werth, he was more productive in the field and at the plate this year. It may be unpopular but look at the numbers.

He didn't do that.

I not only do not clearly "dislike" Markakis, nor has it become personal from my end although it doesn't seem that way from your end (not necessarily you, but the over-rating that goes on where he is concerned here).

What I do intensely dislike though is the over-inflated opinions of his present ability and refusal to not only acknowledge his shortcomings but overlook them and consistently attempt to mis-portray him as better than players he is inferior to such as Jayson Werth. The guy hit 36 homers, stole nearly thirty bases, plays a great right field and in short - does it all, yet here Werth is not a better player only because certain posters feel that way? Not in my view of which I happen to be unbiased in favor of any Oriole, not just Markakis. If another team's player is better he is better. Its as simple as that.

[Old#5fan]

We do know if it would have been left alone, because it wasn't, even before the fielding remarks. And plenty of follow up posts against him had nothing to do with fielding. It's not just about him controlling himself either, you and others went beyond normal rebuttal in this thread.

And the I'd take Werth is what he said at first, there was no shot at Nick. If people didn't incorrectly say he was totally wrong, it most likely would have been left at that.

Absolutely true (what I bolded above).

[Crazysilver03]

I not only do not clearly "dislike" Markakis, nor has it become personal from my end although it doesn't seem that way from your end (not necessarily you, but the over-rating that goes on where he is concerned here).

What I intensely dislike though is the over-inflation opinions of his ability and refusal to not only acknowledge his shortcomings but overlook them and consistently attempt to mis-portray him as better than players he is inferior to such as Jayson Werth. The guy hit 36 homers, stole nearly thirty bases, plays a great right field and in short - does it all, yet here he is clearly a better player because posters feel that way. Not in my view of which I happen to be unbiased. If a player is better he is better. Its as simple as that.

Stats are unbiased. They say Markakis is the better base-runner. They say Werth is the better base-stealer. Its as simple as that.

[Crazysilver03]

We do know if it would have been left alone, because it wasn't, even before the fielding remarks. And plenty of follow up posts against him had nothing to do with fielding. It's not just about him controlling himself either, you and others went beyond normal rebuttal in this thread.

And the I'd take Werth is what he said at first, there was no shot at Nick. If people didn't incorrectly say he was totally wrong, it most likely would have been left at that.

Posters said he was right that Werth was the better base-stealer, but O5F interpreted that as him being a better base-runner, which is wrong.

[amateurfan]

Well, I didn't respond to his first post.

Maybe if, when the subject of Markakis comes up, he would be able to control himself and just leave it at "I'd take Werth," I'd be more willing to cut him some slack.

The fact is nobody knows if that first comment would have been left alone, because OldFan himself takes the conversation to another level.

You brought the conversation to another level. This is the number of times you goaded him off topic:

This is truly phenomenal.

I notice he hasn't responded either....similar to the way he shrinks away from the Adam Jones is the next Frank Robinson declaration....

Come out and defend your Flacco comments....or your Jones one...

Address Flacco and Jones...quit ducking.

If you didn't want it to go to another level, you should have left it alone.

[ejf1025]

We do know if it would have been left alone, because it wasn't, even before the fielding remarks. And plenty of follow up posts against him had nothing to do with fielding. It's not just about him controlling himself either, you and others went beyond normal rebuttal in this thread.

And the I'd take Werth is what he said at first, there was no shot at Nick. If people didn't incorrectly say he was totally wrong, it most likely would have been left at that.

Please, methinks you need to re-read this thread.

Scottie brought up baserunning and was one of two people to respond to his first post.

Here was OldFan's immediate response:

Markakis runs the bases better? How so? I thought I heard that Werth had 20 some steals and was only caught once or twice? If so, you are way, way WAY wrong in that statement. Markakis only had a handful of steals didn't he? Not to mention worth hit twice as many dingers.

One little Flacco joke was made, nothing harsh...and then someone said basestealing wasn't a good metric of baserunning...

OldFan's response:

Well, then please quantify how in any way, shape, or form that Nick Markakis is a "better" base runner than Jason Werth is right now? This statement was made with absolutely nothing to warrant or support it. In fact, quite the opposite is true. Werth is the vastly superior base runner.

This is when things got out of hand...to act like he was just making non-aggressive, specific statements is plain wrong.

Aggressive overstatements basically right out of the gate...hardly anyone had posted against him at this point. He began with the "beyond normal rebuttal" (well not for him)...people responded in kind.

Don't try to martyr him...he made one defensible statement and then went off again.

[ejf1025]

You brought the conversation to another level. This is the number of times you goaded him off topic:

If you didn't want it to go to another level, you should have left it alone.

I explained why these were brought up...if you can't see that these are relevant examples to how he chooses to manipulate data, I don't know what to tell you.

And see my post above...his overstatements came before anyone but Scottie called him out.

[mweb]

Posters said he was right that Werth was the better base-stealer, but O5F interpreted that as him being a better base-runner, which is wrong.

I've been talking about him being right that Werth is at this moment, the better player.