The Great Tillman Debate

[Tony-OH]

This same organization apparently thought whatever he was doing to dominate AAA last year was going to work in the majors. If they thought he was ready to pitch in the big leagues last year then a half season of growing pains and a handful of spring outings shouldn't change their minds IMO.

Tillman was brought up because he was the best option at the time due to a rash of injuries and ineffectiveness in the rotation. Tillman showed last year flashes of being a great pitcher, but his command was spotty from the get go.

I didn't see him in Norfolk but I did see him the year before in Bowie and even then command was an issue.

[Tony-OH]

Tillman was better than both Hernandez and Berken in the major leagues last year, granted none of them were good. Since it appears you want to base it off of spring training alone, I would say Tillman is better than Guthrie at just about everything.

Guthrie has not been good in quite some time now. The last half of '08, The WBC, last spring, all of last season, and this spring to be exact.

I don't think anyone is doing that. Tillman struggling with his command is nothing new. I know it's easy to get excited about a guy but there's a reason he was not very good last year and it was mainly due to a lack of command.

David Hernandez's problems have been command of his secondary pitches and it appears from all reports he's improved in that area.

[ChaosLex]

Props to Ty, Tony, SG, Mackus, etc., for the discussion. Good stuff, gents.

[tvz1997]

Tillman was better than both Hernandez and Berken in the major leagues last year, granted none of them were good. Since it appears you want to base it off of spring training alone, I would say Tillman is better than Guthrie at just about everything.

Guthrie has not been good in quite some time now. The last half of '08, The WBC, last spring, all of last season, and this spring to be exact.

Yeah, but he works really hard.

I'm in favor of Guthrie being in the rotation to start the season, but sometimes I think guys who are renowned for their preparation get too much of the benefit of the doubt and I think some people worry that DT is guilty of seeing things this way. (Though the Moeller demotion should allay some of those fears.)

If a guy has a glaring weakness in his development or in his approach (I think AJ 's cockiness goes beyond healthy confidence, Murray said today that Kakes doesn't have enough "meanness" in his swing, Albers is portly), it seems easier to doubt them. I think if Guthrie was shaped like Hobgood or was quoted as telling the Os where they could stick their idea of developing a circle-change, some of this furor would have come earlier. (I think the last time there was much Guthrie anger on here was when he mouthed off to the press or DT in some way).

[MikeAD]

I will hold off my judgement on this until the season gets going and we see how the players progress.

I am all for letting the guys work things out in AAA, and that's probably going to be the best place for him to work on his command. I don't think this is a huge mistake, nor was it definitely the right move, but its done and lets move on. Tillman will either be a successful major league pitcher or he won't, I highly doubt where he started this season will have anything to do with the final outcome.

[weams]

As a proud father it's been announced that David will be the 5th starter in this year rotation. He will do us all proud!!!

He really looked great. Congratulations to ALL Hernandez's!

[cnmilton]

Does that include Ramon Hernandez???:laughlol:

[Sports Guy]

Posted this in Hank's recent thread, but figured it fits here too. Pretty much a 100% indisputable reason for starting Tillman at AAA:

If he isn't repeating he has no chance of succeeding at the ML level. Sounds like there may be a little more (I'd wager it's on the mental/approach side), but this is enough for me. I think it's great news, because if his mechanics are in-and-out, his command should stand to improve as he irons that out.

FINALLY!!!

Now, this I can get behind. We finally have a legit reason to send him down.

When ST started, I said the only ways Tillman shouldn't be on the OD roster are if he is hurt, looks terrible or mechanics are out of whack.

If he is having mechanics issues, then I agree that sending him down is the right move.

[tvz1997]

FINALLY!!!

Now, this I can get behind. We finally have a legit reason to send him down.

When ST started, I said the only ways Tillman shouldn't be on the OD roster are if he is hurt, looks terrible or mechanics are out of whack.

If he is having mechanics issues, then I agree that sending him down is the right move.

I find it a little funny that now that you know what the Os were thinking and you could not see here in Maryland (which was pointed out to you earlier), you are suddenly on board. But I will give you credit and hopefully head off anybody calling total BS on you. SG did say that this was his take back in early February:

There is nothing he can do in AAA...It makes no sense to send him there unless he is hurt or just looks so out of whack in ST that you have to send him back.

Other than that, he should be here and he shouldn't have to fight tooth and nail for the job either.

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93046&highlight=Tillman+mechanics

[Moose Milligan]

When ST started, I said the only ways Tillman shouldn't be on the OD roster are if he is hurt, looks terrible or mechanics are out of whack.

Way to step out on a limb there

[Sports Guy]

I find it a little funny that now that you know what the Os were thinking and you could not see here in Maryland (which was pointed out to you earlier), you are suddenly on board. But I will give you credit and hopefully head off anybody calling total BS on you. SG did say that this was his take back in early February:

http://forum.orioleshangout.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93046&highlight=Tillman+mechanics

I wouldn't care if someone called bs on me...I know what I said.

[Sports Guy]

Way to step out on a limb there

Well, I am sure you would be ok with whatever the Orioles would do.

No one on here knew Tillman's mechanics were messed up and yet you still endorsed the decision because the Orioles told you so. That's not enough for me.

DH just making it over Tillman because he had a few good weeks is bad...DH making it over Tillman because Tillman is having issues with his mechanics is a totally different story...and its also valid.

[tvz1997]

I wouldn't care if someone called bs on me...I know what I said.

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that you care about what others think of you, SG. I was just trying to head off ... Nevermind. There's no point. Be ornery all you want.

[Sports Guy]

I wouldn't go so far as to suggest that you care about what others think of you, SG. I was just trying to head off ... Nevermind. There's no point. Be ornery all you want.

I wasn't clear..I appreciate what you were trying to say...My only point was that my arguments are consistent...Not going all over the place.

[RShack]

He really looked great. Congratulations to ALL Hernandez's!

Even Ramon?