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Seems like MacPhail "gets it"


Hank Scorpio

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It is fine to not think that having a player play most if not all his career and loosing fans is least of you worries, but think on this. Why are you an O's fan? I would be willing to bet most of us older fans would say along with the winning tradition, we bonded with our players. You knew year in year out Brooks was going to be there, Belanger (my fav. all time O), Cal, Eddie, Palmer etc.... Today's youth has no such connection with the team, and will change teams at the drop of a hat now days. The future O's fans need the few really good players we have to connect with. If they don't and we keep loosing the stadium will eventually be empty and then the team may be moved. I am not supporting keeping guys who can't play, but when we have a young guys that can become icons, you have to think long and hard and then think some more on moving them.

I am trying to build a long term winning organization...If we won the division every year from 2010-2023, i hardly think people would care if there wasn't one player here for more than 7-8 years.

They would get over it quickly with all the winning.

Now, don't get me wrong...There are exceptions to signing guys into their 30s...Ripken was a good example of that.

Roberts and Bedard are not examples of this.

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I am sorry but this is bs. We had a 90 million dollar payroll...We have routinely been above 70 million over the past 10 years...It has NEVER BEEN about the AMOUNT of money spent...It has been on what you spend the money on. It was a horrible plan...Look at the results and not only the results, look at our future...It isn't good especially when you put into context with the rest of the division and league. Let's not overlook this. We have to compete with teams that either have more money than us, a brighter future ore both. This is not a good thing.There was and is a lot more wrong with this team than the BP.

I generally agree with your trade ideas. Bedard if necessary, BRob, Tejada, DCab... mainly because as I said, by keeping the few assets we have, we really can't improve. Assuming we can get the players you outlined, I'm onboard. My point about payroll is that because they had already inflated it to the $79-85M range for several years, that left them less flexibility to add less risky / higher cost players. So for me, higher payroll means LESS flexibility, not more. IE.. payroll constraints...

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I generally agree with your trade ideas. Bedard if necessary, BRob, Tejada, DCab... mainly because as I said, by keeping the few assets we have, we really can't improve. Assuming we can get the players you outlined, I'm onboard. My point about payroll is that because they had already inflated it to the $79-85M range for several years, that left them less flexibility to add less risky / higher cost players. So for me, higher payroll means LESS flexibility, not more. IE.. payroll constraints...

Well this goes back to the idea of getting the wrong players, executing the "middle ground" plan(ie strive for 500) and just being bad at what they do.

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Sure it is.

An average player who's able to play through his 35th birthday has declined from his peak offensive value to about 84% of that. His stolen bases will have declined to 44% of peak. His triples are at 32% of peak, hits down to 77%. For most players this means they're no longer major leaguers.

For example, in 2006 there were 19 major leaguers at age 27 who played 100 or more games. 13 of them had OPSes over .800. There were only seven major leaguers aged 35 who played 100 games, and only three of them had an OPS over .800.

Most major leaguers are out of baseball by their mid-30s, and that's barely changed in the last generation or two.

I give up. I just dumbfounded. Why do you guys even like this sport and this team inparticular?? What is the point of cheering on a team when the players change year after year? Whats the point when the game has been reduced down to cold hard stats and numbers. I guess we should have traded Cal after the 94 season, in his finnal 7 seasons he only had 2 years above an .800 OPS. And why did we even want Brooks in his whole career he only posted 2 above .800. Now I understand why I never took an intrest in stats in baseball, after a time all that matters is the numbers not the passion or players.

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I think that one important factor being overlooked by many would be the swell of interest in the team IF a true rebuild takes place. I would be more interested to watch the kids grow together and develop into quality big leaguers rather than a bunch like we currently have. Season ticket sales may not improve, hard to say, but I for one would go to see them play far more often than I do now.

Hire the games best scouts, both amateur, minor league and major leagues. Become the team that the other 29 teams admire as the best in scouting.

Rebuild from the minor league player development up through the big league club.

Institute a new and aggresive foreign scouting plan and put it to work.

If we take these approaches, most fans, such as those of us here, will see that a true and smart plan is in place, and it will feel good again to be an Orioles fan, with hope for a great future.

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I give up. I just dumbfounded. Why do you guys even like this sport and this team inparticular?? What is the point of cheering on a team when the players change year after year? Whats the point when the game has been reduced down to cold hard stats and numbers. I guess we should have traded Cal after the 94 season, in his finnal 7 seasons he only had 2 years above an .800 OPS. And why did we even want Brooks in his whole career he only posted 2 above .800. Now I understand why I never took an intrest in stats in baseball, after a time all that matters is the numbers not the passion or players.

Cal and Brooks played in different eras so you can't just translate their numbers to the present. And yes, there is a human element to the game and being a fan, but that does not excuse poor front office decisions.

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I give up. I just dumbfounded. Why do you guys even like this sport and this team inparticular?? What is the point of cheering on a team when the players change year after year? Whats the point when the game has been reduced down to cold hard stats and numbers. I guess we should have traded Cal after the 94 season, in his finnal 7 seasons he only had 2 years above an .800 OPS. And why did we even want Brooks in his whole career he only posted 2 above .800. Now I understand why I never took an intrest in stats in baseball, after a time all that matters is the numbers not the passion or players.

As i said and i am sure Drungo would agree, there are the rare players(guys like Cal and Brooks) who are exceptions to this.

But overall you have to play the percentages and do what is best for the long term.

You are bringing up the rare circumstances....For the most part, after 7-8 years, a lot of times it is time for a change for each side.

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I give up. I just dumbfounded. Why do you guys even like this sport and this team inparticular?? What is the point of cheering on a team when the players change year after year? Whats the point when the game has been reduced down to cold hard stats and numbers. I guess we should have traded Cal after the 94 season, in his finnal 7 seasons he only had 2 years above an .800 OPS. And why did we even want Brooks in his whole career he only posted 2 above .800. Now I understand why I never took an intrest in stats in baseball, after a time all that matters is the numbers not the passion or players.

It's a lot easier to hold onto a career-long Oriole when you have lot of other talent around him. It's much more difficult to argue that we should hold onto a lot of declining players when they're the only chits we have to trade for a future where we don't finish below .500 for 10 consecutive years.

It's great that Cal was an Oriole until the day he retired. But he spent most of his career on bad teams. I've had enough loyalty. I want to win for once. The numbers aren't about not caring, they're partially about figuring out when caring for a player too much is going to doom your team.

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It's a lot easier to hold onto a career-long Oriole when you have lot of other talent around him. It's much more difficult to argue that we should hold onto a lot of declining players when they're the only chits we have to trade for a future where we don't finish below .500 for 10 consecutive years.

It's great that Cal was an Oriole until the day he retired. But he spent most of his career on bad teams. I've had enough loyalty. I want to win for once. The numbers aren't about not caring, they're partially about figuring out when caring for a player too much is going to doom your team.

I think it's also worth noting that when a player has a 10-year peak where he's about 30% better than average while playing above average defense at a premium defensive position (like Cal), a 20% decline at age 35 still makes him a valuable player and one worth keeping around.

Most players aren't Cal though. Here's to hoping that Nick Markakis turns into someone like him though.

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I don't want too many players with 1000+ minor league at bats. If you're going to be a franchise-changing star you're probably never going to approach 1000 minor league at bats.

But the point is well taken - you'll get better deals on players without major league track records. Either that or Hayden Penn-like records. You know there are GMs out there trying to get 10 cents on the dollar because Penn has a 9.00 ERA in 50 innings.

Markakis had 1,034 ab's, Sizemore had 1,998 ab's, David Wright had 1,419 ab's, Hanley Ramirez had 1,536 ab's, Miguel Cabrera had 1,428, Reyes had 1,303, Howard had 1,853, Fielder had 1,635, Utley had 1,648, Rollins had 2,242, BJ Upton had 1,824, Mauer had 1,058, Morneau had 1,867, and Russell Martin had 1,311. THe only guy I saw that had less than 1,000 was Pujols. Obviously not a large sample size, but I think I made my point.

But yeah, I get what you're saying and you get what I was saying, so it's all good either way.

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I dont know if this has been mentioned but Melvin Mora has a contract that not many team will want to take alone so he should be traded with Bedard the way the Marlins traded Lowell with Beckett and still got a good bounty for them. All we have to do is make mora waive his NTC which he will if he sees the team is being blown up.

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I'm not trying to argue what MacPhail's philosophy should be.

I'm telling you what MacPhail's philosophy is.

Well I'm telling you that I don't agree with his philosophy is that's what it is, but thanks for the info.

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I dont know if this has been mentioned but Melvin Mora has a contract that not many team will want to take alone so he should be traded with Bedard the way the Marlins traded Lowell with Beckett and still got a good bounty for them. All we have to do is make mora waive his NTC which he will if he sees the team is being blown up.

But then you don't get as much for Bedard in all likelihood.

Just offer to eat up to 70% of the Mora contract if needs be.

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It's a lot easier to hold onto a career-long Oriole when you have lot of other talent around him. It's much more difficult to argue that we should hold onto a lot of declining players when they're the only chits we have to trade for a future where we don't finish below .500 for 10 consecutive years.

It's great that Cal was an Oriole until the day he retired. But he spent most of his career on bad teams. I've had enough loyalty. I want to win for once. The numbers aren't about not caring, they're partially about figuring out when caring for a player too much is going to doom your team.

I guess I just long for the day when you can relate to the players, because the good ones are there year after year. And this afternoon I have had time to reflect on this conversation and to tell the truth... Every year I enjoy baseball less. And it is mostly because the players change teams so much. You got to know not only the players for your team but the players on the other teams. And that was just from a casual fans stand point. I am sure the hard core fans know each roster and the all. I use to know several players on just about each team, now I would be lucky to tell you more then one on each team other then the Yanks and Soxs. IMO the game has become so impersonal, and even though I understand the numbers and why most want to see some of these guys traded, it is like taking away a big part of why I enjoyed the game to begin with.

Shine I even said a couple time I was in favor of blowing it up. But it was like when my wife was looking at new cars. I said it was ok to look at Chevys, until we got on the lot and was really looking at them. I told her I just can't do this. So she got a Dodge, it is not a Ford but I can handle a Dodge.

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