Seems like MacPhail "gets it"

[mweb]

It may or may not be dumb, but the mindset is certainly out there, especially amongst the more conservative/cautious GMs, of which MacPhail is definitely one.

Some guys would rather take a nice level cut and hope for a solid single or double, than swing for the fences and risk striking out.

You guys are dealing with a singles/doubles hitter.

My point is it's not that much less of a risk when we're talking about players with limited ML time, and you have to give up much more to get anyone who has already been very good in the majors, thus considering what is given up, the risk is not higher at all, it actually might be lower.

You have to give up a lot to get a guy like Kemp now, where before the year, you could have had him for less. I'd rather trade Bedard for lets say Kershaw, Hu, and LaRoche than just Kemp and an average prospect. I know Hu and LaRoche had both had lmited major league experience, but it's not like they've torn it up, and we're talking very limited. So it's not really any harder to get them now than it was if they hadn't gotten a cup of coffee.

In that scenario, I don't see Kemp as the less risky option.

[droper]

The Mets are one team...Milledge would be fine...I would certainly take Pelfrey or Humber but i am not sure they are as good as many here think.

Would the Cubs want BRob? I think Dave said they like DeRosa there...If they would be interested, would a Pie and Mashall deal work?

I would think the Padres would be interested but if we get LaRoche in a deal for Bedard, that takes away what we could get back from them.(Headley would be target)

The Rockies could have interest in BRob as well.

I just through out those 3 trades but at the end of the day, this is what we need to come up with:

CF

SS

third base

2nd

1st

pitching

In other words, we need everything because well, we have nothing.

I'd think BRob is exactly Ozzie Guillen's type of player and if Fields and/or Owens make the team no way do they want a third rookie in Richar making the team.

Allegedly Kenny Williams has had interest in Tejada for the last two years, and Juan Uribe may not be brought back for 08.

The two most notable names I've heard about being available from the ChiSox are Garland, with an outside chance of Konerko. I'd be happy with one of these with two lesser prospects for both of them, one of which would have to be a position player.

Assuming they deal Konerko to get closer to matching the $$, this would allow the Sox to put Dye at 1B and have an OF of Podsednik/Owens/Fields and an infield of AJ, Dye, BRob, Tejada and Crede, with Thome DHing. Not a bad bunch of hitters.

Konerko would be under contract for a while to rebuild around with Markakis or could net more prospects from a talent rich team like the Angels or Diamondbacks.

[Sports Guy]

Why does it have to be so black and white?

If you aren't competing(and aren't even close), then you should be rebuilding. To me it is black and white.

Why can't they wait and see with Erik and BRob? We still have them for 2 more years, they are both fairly young and have several more productive years left.

What is the point of waiting? Give me good reasons why we should wait?

What is so wrong with trading Miggy , DCab get a couple good players in return, cut some of the dead weight, sign some of the low cost guys you and others say every year we should sign, let the season start and go from there?

There is nothing wrong with that but that in and of itself is not enough.

If the team responds well and a couple of our other pitchers start to turn the corner, there is a chance Erik and BRob will start to change their tune

But then they become too expensive and not worth signing.

If not then we can still get a kings ransom for Erik, and you have said on many occasions it is best to trade pitching at the deadline any way. And maybe even BRob at the deadline also.

But why risk it? You are throwing out a lot of what if scenarios. What if Bedard gets hurt and his trade value plummets? What if BRob is the 2006 BRob, not the 2007 version? I don't see the point of waiting unless the offers aren't there and i don't believe that is going to be the case.

And I have a really hard time believing it is so easy to come up with a plan of action when you took over the job in the middle of the season

I don't....It should be obvious as to which direction this team needs to go in. I

would assume that they need to have a site down with PA to go over how much money they will have to spend

I don't care about the money right now...That should be meaningless...We are spending enough.

[Sports Guy]

I'd think BRob is exactly Ozzie Guillen's type of player and if Fields and/or Owens make the team no way do they want a third rookie in Richar making the team.

Allegedly Kenny Williams has had interest in Tejada for the last two years, and Juan Uribe may not be brought back for 08.

The two most notable names I've heard about being available from the ChiSox are Garland, with an outside chance of Konerko. I'd be happy with one of these with two lesser prospects for both of them, one of which would have to be a position player.

Assuming they deal Konerko to get closer to matching the $$, this would allow the Sox to put Dye at 1B and have an OF of Podsednik/Owens/Fields and an infield of AJ, Dye, BRob, Tejada and Crede, with Thome DHing. Not a bad bunch of hitters.

Konerko would be under contract for a while to rebuild around with Markakis or could net more prospects from a talent rich team like the Angels or Diamondbacks.

How does this help us get younger, cheaper, better and deeper?

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah, I think it's dumb as well, I'll take a thousand plus minor league at bats plus scouting reports over 100-200 major league ab's any day when evaluating a guy. Sure, to have both is nice, but like I just said, if the guy does well in those major league ab's, it's less likely he's traded, and if he is, you have to give up more to get him.

I don't want too many players with 1000+ minor league at bats. If you're going to be a franchise-changing star you're probably never going to approach 1000 minor league at bats.

But the point is well taken - you'll get better deals on players without major league track records. Either that or Hayden Penn-like records. You know there are GMs out there trying to get 10 cents on the dollar because Penn has a 9.00 ERA in 50 innings.

[davearm]

My point is it's not that much more of a risk when we're talking about players with limited ML time, and you have to give up much more to get anyone who has already been very good in the majors, thus considering what is given up, the risk is not higher at all, it actually might be lower.

You have to give up a lot to get a guy like Kemp now, where before the year, you could have had him for less. I'd rather trade Bedard for lets say Kershaw, Hu, and LaRoche than just Kemp and an average prospect. I know Hu and LaRoche had both had lmited major league experience, but it's not like they've torn it up, and we're talking very limited. So it's not really any harder to get them now than it was if they hadn't gotten a cup of coffee.

In that scenario, I don't see Kemp as the less risky option.

I'm not trying to argue what MacPhail's philosophy should be.

I'm telling you what MacPhail's philosophy is.

[Sapper]

Based on this...

Rest of article here.

Kind of echoes what I said a few days ago:

As a follow-up thought. I don't think that dismantling the players is really the #1 issue. We can do that and if we keep doing business the way we have been -- and nothing leads me to believe that we won't -- we will easily have 10 more losing years (and by that point, or before, the BALTIMORE Orioles will cease to exist, IMO).

We need to change the way we do business from top to bottom of the organization. We need:

better talent assessment

better player development

better coaching at all levels

better negotiating techniques with other teams and FA's

a PLAN (one that doesn't think that Danys Baez is the panacea for last seasons woes)

an owner that allows baseball people to make deals in a timely manner and without undue interference

and THEN we need better players on the field

[Delduck]

If you aren't competing(and aren't even close), then you should be rebuilding. To me it is black and white.

So what you are saying is , if we blow it up this year and don't compete we should blow it up again? I know that is not what you are truly saying but there are different ways to rebuild. A controlled blow up is one way. Make the right moves at the right time.

What is the point of waiting? Give me good reasons why we should wait? There is nothing wrong with that but that in and of itself is not enough. But then they become too expensive and not worth signing.

Then by this logic we should never sign our own players once they reach a year or less on their contracts. I would also guess you are never ever going to complain that we failed to sign a prime FA, because they also will be to expensive and not worth signing.

And as to a good reason. Because we still need to be some what competitive. Fans still need something to go to the ball park for. Because Cindy loves Brian:D

But why risk it? You are throwing out a lot of what if scenarios. What if Bedard gets hurt and his trade value plummets? What if BRob is the 2006 BRob, not the 2007 version? I don't see the point of waiting unless the offers aren't there and i don't believe that is going to be the case.

I am throwing out a lot of what if scenarios because NONE of us know what can/will happen, and that is about all you can do in discussions like this. And why risk it?? Why not? Why not take the chance that we can improve and convince them to sign long term contracts? Because if that gamble pays off then we will be so much better off, even with their big 'ol contracts.

I don't....It should be obvious as to which direction this team needs to go in.

There has been plenty of times you have said or inferred that being a GM is easy. It may be obvious to you, and it may be obvious to them but as I said i hope they don't come out and tell the world just to appease you or any other fan.

II don't care about the money right now...That should be meaningless...We are spending enough.

You may not care about money but AM better care. He is not running some fantasy team, and he needs to know just how much he has to spend, how much PA is willing to eat in contracts, if any at all.

[RShack]

That is it....There is no middle ground...At least there shouldn't be. Middle ground is what they have been doing for 10 years.

Oh, great, just what we need: more phony all-or-nothing BS.

What they've been doing for 10 years is not "middle ground".

Failure to build a good organization top-to-bottom is not "middle ground".

Deciding to over-pay for dead-wood vets like Payton is not "middle ground".

Failure to even formulate, much less follow, a coherent organizational plan is not "middle ground".

What they've been doing for 10 years is "poor decision-making in the absence of any apparent coherent plan".

In what possible universe (other than the one inside SG's head) is doing that called "middle ground"?

As usual, in the world inside SG's mind, there are only 2 choices: SG's way or the wrong way.

As usual, SG makes the bogus claim that anything other than his own wacko scheme is "more of what they've been doing for 10 years".

When it comes to making an honest case, "you just don't get it" ™.

I can't believe how many people fall for this crap...

[NewMarketSean]

Oh, great, just what we need: more phony all-or-nothing BS.

What they've been doing for 10 years is not "middle ground".

Failure to build a good organization top-to-bottom is not "middle ground".

Deciding to over-pay for dead-wood vets like Payton is not "middle ground".

Failure to even formulate, much less follow, a coherent organizational plan is not "middle ground".

What they've been doing for 10 years is "poor decision-making in the absence of any apparent coherent plan".

In what possible universe (other than the one inside SG's head) is doing that called "middle ground"?

As usual, in the world inside SG's mind, there are only 2 choices: SG's way or the wrong way.

As usual, SG makes the bogus claim that anything other than his own wacko scheme is "more of what they've been doing for 10 years".

When it comes to making an honest case, "you just don't get it" ™.

I can't believe how many people fall for this crap...

The reason SG and I want such drastic actions taken is because we have zero faith in the organization as is. Yeah MacPhail is the new guy but he is one guy. You've got an organization full of incompetence that needs to be dealt with. So its more than just getting younger players. And since it's pretty unlikely that either thing happens, you might as well trade away the veterans we have (because we haven't won with them) and hope that younger players raised in better organization's systems might have some success here.

[Mackus]

Oh, great, just what we need: more phony all-or-nothing BS.

What they've been doing for 10 years is not "middle ground".

Failure to build a good organization top-to-bottom is not "middle ground".

Deciding to over-pay for dead-wood vets like Payton is not "middle ground".

Failure to even formulate, much less follow, a coherent organizational plan is not "middle ground".

What they've been doing for 10 years is "poor decision-making in the absence of any apparent coherent plan".

In what possible universe (other than the one inside SG's head) is doing that called "middle ground"?

As usual, in the world inside SG's mind, there are only 2 choices: SG's way or the wrong way.

As usual, SG makes the bogus claim that anything other than his own wacko scheme is "more of what they've been doing for 10 years".

When it comes to making an honest case, "you just don't get it" ™.

I can't believe how many people fall for this crap...

They certainly have had a plan recently, and it definitely was the "middle ground". Attempting to sign some FAs to build a winner while not trading away any aging talent for young prospects. Just because the plan has been a poor one, does not mean it didn't exist. Every offseason the plan was to try and magically build a winner for the next season, while not going completely overboard for FAs. Most definitely middle ground.

Bad plan and worse execution.

[square634]

They certainly have had a plan recently, and it definitely was the "middle ground". Attempting to sign some FAs to build a winner while not trading away any aging talent for young prospects. Just because the plan has been a poor one, does not mean it didn't exist. Every offseason the plan was to try and magically build a winner for the next season, while not going completely overboard for FAs. Most definitely middle ground.

Bad plan and worse execution.

Yeah, I think some GM had a quote before this year that basically described the O's plan perfectly. It was something like "They constantly straddle this line of 'let's see how many wins we can get this year, and then we'll worry about next year next year.' That doesn't work. You need long term vision to compete."

*That is off of memory, so don't actually quote me on that as being exact.

[Sports Guy]

What they've been doing for 10 years is not "middle ground".

Failure to build a good organization top-to-bottom is not "middle ground".

Deciding to over-pay for dead-wood vets like Payton is not "middle ground".

Failure to even formulate, much less follow, a coherent organizational plan is not "middle ground".

Are you really that clueless? You don't think building teams with aging, expensive players with little upside for the STATED PURPOSE of being 500 is not middle ground? Are you kidding me? They are riding the fence, neither competing nor rebuilding.

In what possible universe (other than the one inside SG's head) is doing that called "middle ground"?

In the universe of the informed...The opposite of your universe.

As usual, in the world inside SG's mind, there are only 2 choices: SG's way or the wrong way.

As usual, SG makes the bogus claim that anything other than his own wacko scheme is "more of what they've been doing for 10 years".

As usual, you piss away board space with your lack of reason, thought, plan and baseball intelligence.

NOTE: I originally said intelligence but meant to type baseball before it...Rshack, if you read this first and just saw intelligence, i apologize for that.

[NewMarketSean]

Are you really that clueless? You don't think building teams with aging, expensive players with little upside for the STATED PURPOSE of being 500 is not middle ground? Are you kidding me? They are riding the fence, neither competing nor rebuilding.

In the universe of the informed...The opposite of your universe.

As usual, you piss away board space with your lack of reason, thought, plan and intelligence.

Just an awesome post, and one that will probably get you a week's vacation from the boards. I gave you some reps though.

[Flosman]

The reason SG and I want such drastic actions taken is because we have zero faith in the organization as is. Yeah MacPhail is the new guy but he is one guy. You've got an organization full of incompetence that needs to be dealt with. So its more than just getting younger players. And since it's pretty unlikely that either thing happens, you might as well trade away the veterans we have (because we haven't won with them) and hope that younger players raised in better organization's systems might have some success here.

One issue I have is if the FO was so completely inept, which I think it was, I am very happy they did not make a bunch of moves over the past few years that included our few players that are actually better than average. I have no confidence that they would have got any players back that would have helped us now or in the future. If the FO has good baseball people in place and they have the authority to make deals then by all means make the good ones happen no matter who is involved. But the pre-Macphail FO was trying to give us a utility IF and a DCab clone (i.e. all world potential not so good actual pitching) for a near all-star level SS who is still capable of being a MVP and a older not that great 2b and a flawed 1b for a allstar level second baseman. BTW the second deal having to be nixed by PA is why AM is with the club today IMO. The proof of the capabilities of this current FO will be evident over the next 24 months any shorter period and we are just jumping to conclusions. I think AM has made it clear that the O's are going to try to make moves this winter to improve immediately and in the long term, but the truth is we likely will not have that reliable of a read on the success or failure of the efforts for a couple of seasons.