Seems like MacPhail "gets it"

[rolliefingers]

I do have a random question. Aren't there other ways to sign minor league prospect type guys without trading away your own guys? Somehow, Wayne Krivsky keeps finding these good guys for the Reds without giving away the entire farm system and I have no idea how he keeps doing that without causing huge holes anywhere.

I assume you're referring to Josh Hamilton and Brandon Phillips? Hamilton was a Rule V selection, and it's been said that the Reds has an inside track on him due to some prior connection (scout, coach, I don't remember exactly).

Phillips was a talented guy who had yet to put it together. The Reds got him for a PTBNL.

Both were extremely shrewd moves (and helped balance out the sheer idiocy of trading Kearns and Lopez to WAS). The only trades this team makes are veterans-for-prospects (e.g. Trax - no beef there) or vice versa (Maine/Julio for Benson). Even the CPat trade - an unqualified success - was two scrubs for a MAJOR LEAGUER, not a prospect.

I would be shocked if the Orioles started trading middling prospects for guys like Phillips (or Jack Hannahan, like the A's did).

It's a very smart strategy, and we are the opposite of smart.

[rolliefingers]

You overrate Humber IMO.

I like him a lot more than Pelfrey, that's for sure.

[rolliefingers]

I agree with this. And I appreciate the time and effort RShak spends excersizing his opinion here especially due to the fact that much of the time it is done in response to disagreements (some more constuctive than others) and it would be much easier for him not to post at all and just let things be.

You know what I would like? If Shack took all the time he spends, um, courageously battling logical fallacies, and spent it, oh I don't know, actually talking about baseball. Radical concept, to be sure.

If all you bring to the table is decontructing others' arguments, but have no arguments of your own, what good are you doing, exactly?

[Sports Guy]

You know what I would like? If Shack took all the time he spends, um, courageously battling logical fallacies, and spent it, oh I don't know, actually talking about baseball. Radical concept, to be sure.

If all you bring to the table is decontructing others' arguments, but have no arguments of your own, what good are you doing, exactly?

Well Shack has said...hire good baseball people. So, he did contribute some kind of a plan.

Bigbird...You have said you don't think they will blow it up...What happens if they put the money on the table for Bedard and he says no thanks?

Does that change things for them?

[rolliefingers]

Bigbird...You have said you don't think they will blow it up...What happens if they put the money on the table for Bedard and he says no thanks?

Does that change things for them?

Excellent question, BB.

[AgentOrange]

I assume you're referring to Josh Hamilton and Brandon Phillips? Hamilton was a Rule V selection, and it's been said that the Reds has an inside track on him due to some prior connection (scout, coach, I don't remember exactly).

Phillips was a talented guy who had yet to put it together. The Reds got him for a PTBNL.

Both were extremely shrewd moves (and helped balance out the sheer idiocy of trading Kearns and Lopez to WAS). The only trades this team makes are veterans-for-prospects (e.g. Trax - no beef there) or vice versa (Maine/Julio for Benson). Even the CPat trade - an unqualified success - was two scrubs for a MAJOR LEAGUER, not a prospect.

I would be shocked if the Orioles started trading middling prospects for guys like Phillips (or Jack Hannahan, like the A's did).

It's a very smart strategy, and we are the opposite of smart.

Well I think it is smart if it works out. If not, you have more holes on the roster. I think we are at the point where we should make some moves such as these, but maybe we did (Knott, House and such.) But we didn't use them correctly. So even if we did make those moves, who knows how it will turn out.

It is a tough situation. I would rather just go with younger guys than Hamilton type players, IMO. There is a better chance of success with younger guys I would assume.

[rolliefingers]

Well I think it is smart if it works out. If not, you have more holes on the roster. I think we are at the point where we should make some moves such as these, but maybe we did (Knott, House and such.) But we didn't use them correctly. So even if we did make those moves, who knows how it will turn out.

It is a tough situation. I would rather just go with younger guys than Hamilton type players, IMO. There is a better chance of success with younger guys I would assume.

Hamilton was only 25 this season, with insane potential.

Plus, how would you have holes in the roster by trading a middling prospect for a guy like Phillips? If it works out, you have a 30-HR-hitting 2B; if not, you try something else.

That's what we should have done with House and Knott, but I digress.

[bobmc]

You know what I would like? If Shack took all the time he spends, um, courageously battling logical fallacies, and spent it, oh I don't know, actually talking about baseball. Radical concept, to be sure.

If all you bring to the table is decontructing others' arguments, but have no arguments of your own, what good are you doing, exactly?

Hey, hey! That's all I do too! I do compliment a few folks for their candor and perspicacity, but just sayin'! There's something to be said for us "deconstructors". We try to keep you thinkers honest - separate the wheat from the chaff and stuff like that....

Now El Gordo - that's another story....

Back to the thread topic......

[bigbird]

Well what is realistic? It seems like the major pieces that could be traded are at pretty high value (Bedard and Brob). IF we do things the way MacPhail wants and rebuild, these guys will be on the downside of production by the time we turn it around. I don't see how Miggi's value could be any higher than it is right now. At least not moving forward. If anything, his value will drop over the next year and we don't get much in return. It will be hard to pull this off, but we need to stop trying to win now and rebuild at the same time, it doesn't work unles your "win now" bunch has talent, which it doesn't/

I think we're looking to acquire younger talents like Milledge vs suspects. I can see us dealing Tejada, Hernandez and maybe Cabrera. I can also see us dealing someone line Penn or Liz.

[rolliefingers]

I think we're looking to acquire younger talents like Milledge vs suspects. I can see us dealing Tejada, Hernandez and maybe Cabrera. I can also see us dealing someone line Penn or Liz.

...But not Roberts or Bedard?

[Sports Guy]

I think we're looking to acquire younger talents like Milledge vs suspects. I can see us dealing Tejada, Hernandez and maybe Cabrera. I can also see us dealing someone line Penn or Liz.

IE...ML ready guys who have proven to be good minor leaguers?

That makes sense...I think that is what most of us have advocated.

[rolliefingers]

Also, BB, what happens if Bedard rejects our extension offer?

[rolliefingers]

IE...ML ready guys who have proven to be good minor leaguers?

That makes sense...I think that is what most of us have advocated.

Exactly. I don't think anyone has wanted to go after some team's A-ball prospects.

[AgentOrange]

Hamilton was only 25 this season, with insane potential.

Sure, he does have potential. I suppose I am only looking to go after lower risk type of players for my 25 man roster.

The doorbell rang at 2 in the morning last October. Mary Holt trudged to the door, looked through the peephole and saw a stranger on her porch.

Holt, 75, slowly opened the front door. It was as if she saw a ghost. The boy had lost 40 pounds. He hadn't slept in four days. His face was ashen. His cheeks were sunken. His eyes were glazed and distant. His body was trembling.

"Hello, granny," he mumbled.

Josh Hamilton, the former All-American baseball hero of Raleigh, N.C., was a junkie looking for shelter.

Today, seven years after the Tampa Bay Devil Rays made the outfielder the No. 1 overall pick in the June Free Agent Draft, Hamilton is a recovering drug addict looking for one last chance.

He hasn't played an organized game of baseball since July 10, 2002, when he his shoulder and elbow and drifted into the drug scene to relieve the boredom from being sidelined.

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/al/devilrays/2006-06-06-hamilton-cover_x.htm

I mean sure he has the opportunity to go far with baseball and really help a club out. Yet, this is one of those opportunities that worked out that very well could have flopped. He was a rule 5, which means he has to stay on the roster the entire year in order to keep him. What if the start isn't stroybook? How long do you keep him on the roster? You have to almost play said person everyday to really see if they are going to turn the corner. If we do a full out rebuild, go for it. With the team we have now? Not a realistic possibilty. I mean I understand what you are saying in this matter, I just don't agree it is the right approach to go that high risk.

[Sports Guy]

CHanging this thread around a little bit.....It does seem that MacPhail gets it based on the quote from the original post in this thread.

However, the article also talks about him filling in holes in the pen and how they don't know what direction to go in yet. How is it possible that you don't know?

There is only 2 directions to go in:

1) Do what you can to realistically compete...You have to make up 25-30 games. So, good luck with that.

2) Rebuild

That is it....There is no middle ground...At least there shouldn't be. Middle ground is what they have been doing for 10 years.