The next Carlos Pena?

[Sports Guy]

I agree with this. Gordon has had ample opportunity to prove himself in KC. Pena was a pretty solid .780 - .800 hitter before getting to Tampa. Gordon has never really shown much power at the ML level, and really seems to be regressing. I would give up someone like Waring for Gordon, but not DH.

Based on what? He only has 2 full seasons...He missed a lot of time last year and this year, as I stated, his BABIP is very low despite the fact that his LD% is very high...Not to mention, the fb rates...All good signs for power.

[jasmith85]

Yes, his upside is much higher than Snyder.

That may very well be, but at 26 how likely is he to hit that ceiling given his lackluster performance thus far. There were two parts to what i said earlier. At some point you stop being a prospect and start being a career AAAA player, 26 is approaching that point. Ask Lou Montanez.

[UMDTerrapins]

In 2 seconds...and I think DH is going to be a valuable member of this team.

But we are talking about a potential middle of the order bat here...It may flop but we have to take a risk.

I agree that at some point, this organization is going to have to put their cards on the table. We do not have all the pieces to be competitive in house. Young talent will have to be dealt. Gordon is too talented to remain a AAAA player. I have to agree with SG, I think I'd move DH. And I don't think anything less than DH or better will net a player with Gordon's ability. And this is a move that wouldn't wreck a youth movement like we have, if it fails miserably by injury or the unknown.

[Sports Guy]

I agree that Gordon is a good target. I'm shocked you'd mention that you don't "think" you'd trade Arrieta or Tillman. Gordon has been dreadful in the majors and has also had trouble staying healthy. I'd be fine with giving up Snyder but they've got a few first basemen in their system.

Hard to guess what to give. Spoone? Patton? C. Joseoh?

I think we have plenty of options to trade for him...and nothing that would really hurt us all that much.

I would prefer to keep DH but I would definitely trade him for Gordon.

I would move Bergy for him as well.

Guys like Mickolio, JJ, etc...all of them I would trade.

[waroriole]

Based on what? He only has 2 full seasons...He missed a lot of time last year and this year, as I stated, his BABIP is very low despite the fact that his LD% is very high...Not to mention, the fb rates...All good signs for power.

Regressing may not have been the right word, but he's certainly not making any advancements. He's got a very high K rate and from when I've seen him play he doesn't seem to square up and make good contact. I don't think he was adequately prepared in the KC minor league system. I'd give up a C prospect for him, but that's about it.

[Sports Guy]

That may very well be, but at 26 how likely is he to hit that ceiling given his lackluster performance thus far. There were two parts to what i said earlier. At some point you stop being a prospect and start being a career AAAA player, 26 is approaching that point. Ask Lou Montanez.

The problem with this theory is that Gordon has signs that things aren't as bad as they appear:

1) After improving on his first season, he had a hip issue last year and that cost him most of the season. His numbers last year dropped a lot but how much of that was recovering? I am not sure you can look at it too much.

2) So, going off of #1, you look at this year thus far. Well, thus far, he has a very good BB%...His LD% is very good...His FB rates are good. But his BABIP is very low...Now, he has less than 40 plate appearances...and the Royals seem to be handling him wrong. Its not like he is lost out there...A LD% of 26% with a 227 BABIP is very unlucky.

This is a guy with a ton of talent..In his first 2 seasons, he was worth around 20 million.

He has a lot of service time left as well.

I don't have a problem with people not wanting Gordon...What I have an issue with is people seemingly complaining that we need to add talent but people also never wanting to trade players to get that talent.

[Sports Guy]

Regressing may not have been the right word, but he's certainly not making any advancements. He's got a very high K rate and from when I've seen him play he doesn't seem to square up and make good contact. I don't think he was adequately prepared in the KC minor league system. I'd give up a C prospect for him, but that's about it.

He has a higher career LD rate than Nick does...and that was with a 14% last year, which is bad and it really drove does his numbers.

[ChaosLex]

I think Chris Davis and Andy LaRoche are good targets too.

[Sports Guy]

I think Chris Davis and Andy LaRoche are good targets too.

LaRoche has always been a favorite of mine...With Alvarez coming up soon enough, I would definitely look into him.

[jasmith85]

The problem with this theory is that Gordon has signs that things aren't as bad as they appear:

1) After improving on his first season, he had a hip issue last year and that cost him most of the season. His numbers last year dropped a lot but how much of that was recovering? I am not sure you can look at it too much.

2) So, going off of #1, you look at this year thus far. Well, thus far, he has a very good BB%...His LD% is very good...His FB rates are good. But his BABIP is very low...Now, he has less than 40 plate appearances...and the Royals seem to be handling him wrong. Its not like he is lost out there...A LD% of 26% with a 227 BABIP is very unlucky.

This is a guy with a ton of talent..In his first 2 seasons, he was worth around 20 million.

He has a lot of service time left as well.

I don't have a problem with people not wanting Gordon...What I have an issue with is people seemingly complaining that we need to add talent but people also never wanting to trade players to get that talent.

He isnt "talent" though, he is possible talent that has yet to put it together at the ML level. As my father would say "He is eggs up a chickens a**." In Hernandez you have a known commodity, he looks to be either an above average 3 or 4 pitcher, or a very good reliever. I think everyone would agree that DH has pitched very well this year despite what his numbers say, his biggest problem being that he tends to run out of gas. I just have a hard time giving up that kind of proven talent for "possible" talent.

[Sports Guy]

I mentioned this in conjecture with Carlos Pena...So, allow me to delve further into that(basing this off of similar ages...pretty much before Pena went to Tampa):

1) They have similar BB rates.

2) Pena's K rates were higher.

3) Similar LD%

4) Similar FB%

5) Gordon has a better WAR

Now, Pena did show more power but its not like Gordon lacks power, even though he hasn't shown it yet.

Most of the numbers are even or in Gordon's favor...except for the power.

So, there are a lot of reasons to think that Gordon isn't done or something like that.

Now, of course he may be...and we may get hardly anything out of him.

Just because Pena bucked the trend, it doesn't mean Gordon will...But again, the idea is to search for that good buy low, high upside guy that could end up being our Ortiz or Pena...and there are a lot of reasons to believe that Gordon could be that guy.

[jasmith85]

I mentioned this in conjecture with Carlos Pena...So, allow me to delve further into that(basing this off of similar ages...pretty much before Pena went to Tampa):

1) They have similar BB rates.

2) Pena's K rates were higher.

3) Similar LD%

4) Similar FB%

5) Gordon has a better WAR

Now, Pena did show more power but its not like Gordon lacks power, even though he hasn't shown it yet.

Most of the numbers are even or in Gordon's favor...except for the power.

So, there are a lot of reasons to think that Gordon isn't done or something like that.

Now, of course he may be...and we may get hardly anything out of him.

Just because Pena bucked the trend, it doesn't mean Gordon will...But again, the idea is to search for that good buy low, high upside guy that could end up being our Ortiz or Pena...and there are a lot of reasons to believe that Gordon could be that guy.

I agree with all of this, I just think you are really underselling Hernandez here. Maybe I am just too high on the guy.

[Sports Guy]

He isnt "talent" though, he is possible talent that has yet to put it together at the ML level. As my father would say "He is eggs up a chickens a**." In Hernandez you have a known commodity, he looks to be either an above average 3 or 4 pitcher, or a very good reliever. I think everyone would agree that DH has pitched very well this year despite what his numbers say, his biggest problem being that he tends to run out of gas. I just have a hard time giving up that kind of proven talent for "possible" talent.

No you don't...He is a borderline ML starter who SHOULD be a very good reliever...He is hardly a known commodity.

Put it this way...Gordon has been worth a lot more in his career than DH has...and before you say Gordon has had a lot more time....DH has had negative value thus far in his career, when you look at WAR....Gordon was worth just under 9 million in his first season.

[Sports Guy]

I agree with all of this, I just think you are really underselling Hernandez here. Maybe I am just too high on the guy.

I am not underselling him...I fully recognize that DH should be a valuable member of this team...but I don't think that his value is worth keeping if he can get us Gordon.

[jasmith85]

No you don't...He is a borderline ML starter who SHOULD be a very good reliever...He is hardly a known commodity.

Put it this way...Gordon has been worth a lot more in his career than DH has...and before you say Gordon has had a lot more time....DH has had negative value thus far in his career, when you look at WAR....Gordon was worth just under 9 million in his first season.

Alright so the root problem here is not what we think of Gordon its how we value Hernandez. We're just going to have to agree to disagree.