Olney: PED use shouldn't prohibit HOF votes

[SammyBirdland]

Does anyone have access to this insider article on ESPN? I want to confirm whether or not Olney is a complete moron.

http://insider.espn.go.com/mlb/blog?name=olney_buster&id=5439258

[square634]

Yeah. Here's the paragraph that I think summarizes his argument:

I've voted for McGwire, and I will vote for Clemens and Bonds and Rodriguez, because within the context of their era -- a time when most of the best players were probably using drugs -- they were the best players. And without benefit of anything close to full knowledge of who used what, and when they used, I think the only fair and consistent standard is to vote for no one at all from the steroid era, or to set aside the question of who used and just vote for the best players.

[Mark Carver]

He went on about this last night on Baseball Tonight when talking about ARod 600th HR.

[DrungoHazewood]

Yeah. Here's the paragraph that I think summarizes his argument:

I think that's perfectly reasonable. If you try to sort out who used and how much and when and all that stuff you'll make the stuff the Vet's Committee used to do look rational.

Not only that, but with a 75% requirement nobody will be elected by the writers for the next 25 years. And the Hall of Fame wasn't created to not induct anyone. They won't let their business model fail.

[square634]

I think that's perfectly reasonable. If you try to sort out who used and how much and when and all that stuff you'll make the stuff the Vet's Committee used to do look rational.

Not only that, but with a 75% requirement nobody will be elected by the writers for the next 25 years. And the Hall of Fame wasn't created to not induct anyone. They won't let their business model fail.

Yeah it also makes sense to me.

[Don Quixote]

Known use should prohibit it...I don't buy the "everyone or no one" argument. If a player did enough and was clean, fine, open the doors, but if the performance was augmented in that certain way, forget it.

[SammyBirdland]

To me, this means that as of the steroids era, the HOF is now irrelevant. If you made it to the HOF before the steroids era, then you are a baseball hero. If you make it to the HOF having played in the steroids era, whoopty-doo, congratulations cheater.

[ADAMWD_OsRavens]

I agree totally, they should all be in. When McGwire played, HGH and anabolic steroids weren't even illegal in the MLB yet. All players from every era of baseball have had some kind of advantage.

Should we put asterisks next to Ruth and Aaron's home run totals because they played when there were no minorities playing the game, no lefty specialists, no dominant closers, almost every pitcher was pitching tired, there was no real minor league system that evaluated players and ensured that only the best players made it to the big leagues, or that players were taking amphetamines as well.

As long as the game has been played, players have been trying to gain some kind of competitive advantage. Steroids and HGH is just a different breed of these types of advantages. If we assume that most players in the era of Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, etc ere using some kind of PED, then these guys in context absolutely dominated their respective era, and that's good enough for me.

[ledzepp8]

I agree totally, they should all be in. When McGwire played, HGH and anabolic steroids weren't even illegal in the MLB yet. All players from every era of baseball have had some kind of advantage.

Is there a specific MLB rule against murder, rape, armed robbery, acts of terrorism, embezzlement, fraud, etc?

[byrdz]

Their performance is in question, yes, but I think the bigger deal is how they handled everything when the drama unfolded because it speaks to their character. McGuire and Palmerio will be/is hurt more by this than anyone it seems.

I agree totally, they should all be in. When McGwire played, HGH and anabolic steroids weren't even illegal in the MLB yet. All players from every era of baseball have had some kind of advantage.

But they were illegal in the US. MLB doesn't determine the laws of our nation. I think it goes without saying that if there's a law against it you shouldn't be doing it. If they themsevles didn't feel that it was an issue because MLb didn't care then they wouldn't have been so secretive about their use. They knew what they were doing was wrong.

Should we put asterisks next to Ruth and Aaron's home run totals because they played when there were no minorities playing the game, no lefty specialists, no dominant closers, almost every pitcher was pitching tired, there was no real minor league system that evaluated players and ensured that only the best players made it to the big leagues, or that players were taking amphetamines as well.

I'll give you the amphetimines but the rest is Apples to Oranges. You're comparing outright cheating to strategy developments in the game throughout history.

[mweb]

To me, this means that as of the steroids era, the HOF is now irrelevant. If you made it to the HOF before the steroids era, then you are a baseball hero. If you make it to the HOF having played in the steroids era, whoopty-doo, congratulations cheater.

I guess, but some of those guys very likely used steroids as well considering steroids were in the sport well before what most consider to be the steroid era. And a lot of guys who used greenies and the like are in the HOF, which a lot of players and observers feel are more important to players than steroids.

I agree with Olney.

[eb45]

What would really screw with the HOF is if a guy like Bagwell, Griffey, or Biggio is inducted, THEN admits to steroid use. That could open the floodgates for the McGwires, Palmeiros, and the rest.

[DrungoHazewood]

To me, this means that as of the steroids era, the HOF is now irrelevant. If you made it to the HOF before the steroids era, then you are a baseball hero. If you make it to the HOF having played in the steroids era, whoopty-doo, congratulations cheater.

Ok, so what's the steroids era? Because guys like Tom House admitted that he and his teammates and opponents "took steroids they wouldn't give to a horse" in the 1960s. That would kind of make Aaron, Mays, Yaz, and a bunch of other people whoopty-do cheaters.

Not to mention Pud Galvin, HOF pitcher, bragging in the media about taking bull testicle extract (essentially a steroid precursor) in the 1880s. Could make an argument that the HOF's only 100% guaranteed clean members are Candy Cummings, Harry Wright and Al Spalding.

[ADAMWD_OsRavens]

Their performance is in question, yes, but I think the bigger deal is how they handled everything when the drama unfolded because it speaks to their character. McGuire and Palmerio will be/is hurt more by this than anyone it seems.

But they were illegal in the US. MLB doesn't determine the laws of our nation. I think it goes without saying that if there's a law against it you shouldn't be doing it. If they themsevles didn't feel that it was an issue because MLb didn't care then they wouldn't have been so secretive about their use. They knew what they were doing was wrong.

I'll give you the amphetimines but the rest is Apples to Oranges. You're comparing outright cheating to strategy developments in the game throughout history.

Those comparions may be apples to oranges, but they all fall under the category of performance enhancing advantages.

If you threw a guy like Pujols into the 1950s, he would have probably hit 800 home runs easy. But at the same time, no matter how many times you inject Cesar Izturis with steroids, he will never hit more than 10 home runs in a season.

The point is that performance is relative to the era in which a player played in. These guys taking steroids beat other guys taking steroids; they didn't play with Aaron, Ruth, or Mays. With or without PEDs, these guys were still great players for their era which to me, warrants a spot in the HoF. The only meaningful difference I see in the advantages of the steroids era and the advantages of the early to mid 1900s is that except for greenies, advantages back then were out of the players control.

BTW, if any of these guys do get in, then Pete Rose needs to be in the HoF right away.

[eb45]

Steroids have much more of an effect on hitters than they do on pitchers.