Why do people dislike the Stockstills?

[Lucky Jim]

I thought JS was hired in 2005? That would have been before AM. He oversaw the international effort until 2010, I haven't seen any results from his time in that position (which may not be his fault). I don't think he has had enough time for us to evaluate his performance in his new position.

Truthfully, I am not worked up about this. Its a year. I have a feeling that JS is the least of our worries but I think he has been part of the losing long enough to at least question whether he is part of the problem.

You may be right on that. If so, my bad. Nonetheless, it doesn't really take the shine off of the fact that his promotion in the system was under AM and Buck. (Not that it's a point of contest).

Edit: and right you are:

http://www.masnsports.com/steve_melewski/2010/07/assessing-the-os-minor-leagues-q-and-a-with-john-stockstill.html

John Stockstill has been with the Orioles for five years. He joined the club in December of 2005 to oversee the O's Major League and pro scouting.

He has also served as the club's director of international scouting. Since early April of this year he has worked in his latest role with the club as director of player development.

In that role he oversees the development of players at all levels of the organization, to include overseeing the workings in the O's minors.

[BIG R]

And if you were successful as a franchise, no one would care.

The bottom line is that we have had 14 straight losing seasons, and our minor league organization is considered one of the poorer ones. ANYONE who has been a part of that for most of those years is at the very least suspect. Maybe such an individual is truly competent but has been overwhelmed by the sea of incompetence around him... but you don't get where we are without a LOT of incompetent people.

At this point, if I hear about ANYBODY who has been in any kind of position that affects player acquisition, scouting, or development for a long period of time, my first reaction is going to be "get rid of them". Even if I know nothing about them? Why? Because as I said, you don't get where we are by having a lot of competent people. Maybe the person in question is the exception but statistically the odds are against it. And even if such a person IS good at their job, the losing culture and expectations of the last 14 years could have affected them as well.

We suck as an organization. No team has gotten fewer wins for its payroll dollar than we have over the last decade. Our local TV viewership is in the bottom 4 of 32 teams in baseball. Our attendance, despite a universally beloved ballpark, is abysmal. Our minor leagues have produced fewer quality major leaguers over the past 30 years than any team in the majors (and the FEW really good ones that it has produced in time were "no-brainer" first round draft picks out of college like Mussina and Olson and Wieters who spent very little time in our farm system, and apparently we botched one of the "no-brainers" in Matusz too).

You name ANYONE who has been involved in scouting, player acquisition, or player development for a significant period of time, and ask me if they should come back... and I will say, no. When you are this bad, change for changes sake is not a bad thing.

This is the bottom line. This is the worst franchise in producing good players. Hence, the O's have sucked for a very long time.

[Lucky Jim]

This is the bottom line. This is the worst franchise in producing good players. Hence, the O's have sucked for a very long time.

This is the Terry Crowley argument.

[Sports Guy]

This is the Terry Crowley argument.

What argument is that? The one that says if you consistently get poor results, year after year, that you should no longer be employed?

[Lucky Jim]

What argument is that? The one that says if you consistently get poor results, year after year, that you should no longer be employed?

The one that places the onus of "poor results" on individuals who (i) have no control over those results or (ii) were not around for much of the time those "results" poured in.

[Sports Guy]

The one that places the onus of "poor results" on individuals who (i) have no control over those results or (ii) were not around for much of the time those "results" poured in.

Crow had control over results in some ways.

Stockstill has been here since 2005. He oversaw scouting...How did that work out?

What does he need to do for you to see that what he is doing isn't working?

[BIG R]

Crow had control over results in some ways.

Stockstill has been here since 2005. He oversaw scouting...How did that work out?

What does he need to do for you to see that what he is doing isn't working?

BINGO!! Keith Law and Jim Callis have both said recently they are baffled by a number of highly rated draft picks go into the O's system and have trouble or come to the big leagues and regress. They pointed to player development as a possible issue. Duh! This is a well known fact around these parts. Come on buddy.

[Lucky Jim]

Crow had control over results in some ways.

Stockstill has been here since 2005. He oversaw scouting...How did that work out?

What does he need to do for you to see that what he is doing isn't working?

I dissected that info a million times. The evidence that he was responsible for what we blamed him for was virtually non-existent.

Stockstill has been here from, essentially, 2006-2011. From 2006-2008 he directed scouting. I have no way of measuring the kind of job he did. I do know that his promotion to the international position (in January 2008) was part of our attempt to improve international results - which we did, on a number of fronts (institutional limits are not a valid critique of his performance, though there have been anecdotal critiques that resonate). This includes increased presence, increased spending, improved facilities, and - it would appear - improved results. See: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-12-27/sports/0912260066_1_andy-macphail-john-stockstill-orioles

From there, he was promoted to improve minor-league direction and instruction. As I noted, he's had one year in this position, w/ a somewhat depleted system. That said, each change in position has been a sign of significant internal/institutional confidence in him.

What I haven't seen is any criticism specifically tailored to his performance.

[Lucky Jim]

BINGO!! Keith Law and Jim Callis have both said recently they are baffled by a number of highly rated draft picks go into the O's system and have trouble or come to the big leagues and regress. They pointed to player development as a possible issue. Duh! This is a well known fact around these parts. Come on buddy.

And this relates to J. Stockstill how?

[Sports Guy]

I dissected that info a million times. The evidence that he was responsible for what we blamed him for was virtually non-existent.

Stockstill has been here from, essentially, 2006-2011. From 2006-2008 he directed scouting. I have no way of measuring the kind of job he did. I do know that his promotion to the international position (in January 2008) was part of our attempt to improve international results - which we did, on a number of fronts (institutional limits are not a valid critique of his performance, though there have been anecdotal critiques that resonate). This includes increased presence, increased spending, improved facilities, and - it would appear - improved results. See: http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2009-12-27/sports/0912260066_1_andy-macphail-john-stockstill-orioles

From there, he was promoted to improve minor-league direction and instruction. As I noted, he's had one year in this position, w/ a somewhat depleted system. That said, each change in position has been a sign of significant internal/institutional confidence in him.

What I haven't seen is any criticism specifically tailored to his performance.

I guess results just don't mean anything to people anymore.

People are happy from going from an F grade to a D.

I guess I just expect more than everyone else.

And either way, no way should he have been signed without the new GM being ok with it. It just makes no sense. Its just part of the reason why this organization is as bad as it is.

[Lucky Jim]

I guess results just don't mean anything to people anymore.

People are happy from going from an F grade to a D.

I guess I just expect more than everyone else.

And either way, no way should he have been signed without the new GM being ok with it. It just makes no sense. Its just part of the reason why this organization is as bad as it is.

What results?

[Frobby]

You may be right on that. If so, my bad. Nonetheless, it doesn't really take the shine off of the fact that his promotion in the system was under AM and Buck. (Not that it's a point of contest).

Edit: and right you are:

http://www.masnsports.com/steve_melewski/2010/07/assessing-the-os-minor-leagues-q-and-a-with-john-stockstill.html

MacPhail is the one who moved him to be director of international scouting, and then farm director. And, he was in the Cubs organization for a while during MacPhail's tenure there. So, it is apparent that MacPhail thought highly of him, regardless of the fact that he was already in our organization when MacPhail arrived.

As to whether Stockstill accomplished anything as director of international scouting, I'd say yes. We scouted and signed Koji Uehara during his tenure in that job. We scouted and signed Alfredo Simon out of the Mexican League during his tenure. We scouted and signed Jonathan Schoop during his tenure. We opened a new Dominican facility that was vastly superior to what we had before.

I know the organization gets a lot of criticism for not spending more money on high-bonus international players. Separate from that issue, though, I do feel progress is being made in Latin America. Both the Dominican Summer League and Gulf Coast League teams made the playoffs, and the GCL team is stacked with Latin players, including two who made BA's GCL top 20 list. The amount of bonus money we pay isn't a Stockstill issue.

[Sports Guy]

What results?

Crappy farm system..Very little talent produced...Drafting the wrong talent...Not having enough scouts...Not having more cross checkers.

The list goes on and on.

Put it this way..the list of bad is much longer than the list of good.

[Sports Guy]

MacPhail is the one who moved him to be director of international scouting, and then farm director. And, he was in the Cubs organization for a while during MacPhail's tenure there. So, it is apparent that MacPhail thought highly of him, regardless of the fact that he was already in our organization when MacPhail arrived.

As to whether Stockstill accomplished anything as director of international scouting, I'd say yes. We scouted and signed Koji Uehara during his tenure in that job. We scouted and signed Alfredo Simon out of the Mexican League during his tenure. We scouted and signed Jonathan Schoop during his tenure. We opened a new Dominican facility that was vastly superior to what we had before.

I know the organization gets a lot of criticism for not spending more money on high-bonus international players. Separate from that issue, though, I do feel progress is being made in Latin America. Both the Dominican Summer League and Gulf Coast League teams made the playoffs, and the GCL team is stacked with Latin players, including two who made BA's GCL top 20 list. The amount of bonus money we pay isn't a Stockstill issue.

The fact that you can do this on one hand over a long period of time, is pretty poor.

And most of knew what we had in Koji without ever seeing him. I am not giving him credit for doing some incredible scouting to discover a 30+ y/o pitcher, who has been pitching for years, and know that he has great command and control. You could tell that from stats.

[Lucky Jim]

Crappy farm system..Very little talent produced...Drafting the wrong talent...Not having enough scouts...Not having more cross checkers.

The list goes on and on.

Put it this way..the list of bad is much longer than the list of good.

So, I'll ask again: what among this is tied to John Stockstill?

Or:

The one that places the onus of "poor results" on individuals who (i) have no control over those results or (ii) were not around for much of the time those "results" poured in.