MLB Network discusses Fielder to Nationals

[weams]

This is about the 4th time I've seen you type a post like this in the past several weeks. You know this isn't really the position of the people you're passive aggressively attacking, but you're using it as a convenient straw man argument. Also, the whole approach of doing this passive-aggressively rather than addressing peoples' opinions directly is really weak. I would think if you actually wanted a true debate rather than simply a cheap shot you'd simply quote the responses you disagree with and explain why you disagree with them.

You know what, I'm your huckleberry. I'm going to create a thread about the Orioles' roster that actually looks at money spent and money available. In that thread, I'll clearly point out our current salary commitments and we can discuss who we can "buy" to augment to the final salary number and where that gets us. One question needs to be answered to get started.

What salary are you willing to agree is the upper limit for what the Orioles can realistically spend? I don't want to debate on MASN money or split hairs. I want a number. You seem sure that we're not spending enough so you must know what you believe "enough" to be.

I'll open that question to anyone that wants to answer. The question is simple:

What do you believe the Orioles payroll limitation to be in 2012? 2013? 2014?

Once we have numbers, I'll be happy to actually put effort into a post that looks at where this allotment is being spent to determine what is left.

I know what number is my upper limit, but I don't want to state it until I've seen input for anyone who believes the payroll is too low.

I would think that we could spend 110 Million a year for 3 years if we were truly competetive.

[Sports Guy]

I think there is a limit to what the Orioles can spend with a poor attendance.

I do think that the limit could and should be higher than what it is.

PA wants to pocket the money and cry woe is me because of the economic disparity in his division.

Every interview you see with him he brings it up. Its not a coincidence.

He wants to use it as an excuse.

The bottom line is this....PA isn't committed to winning unless it happens under his terms.

A guy like Mark Cuban, for example, loves his team so much that he is willing to do what it takes to win. He will spend his money. He will bring the fans what they want.

PA is only willing to do what HE wants. But he tries to play it off as he is doing it "for the fans" by not trading certain players, building statues, putting Baltimore on the jerseys and bringing back the meaningless cartoon bird. But hey, that's good PR stuff right? That makes Joe the fan happen and because of that, PA is a "for the fans" owner.

The man is delusional. He just has no idea what he is doing yet he thinks he is the smartest person in the room. Perhaps in a courtroom, he is...but not in a baseball office.

Its a shame too...He is really a good person. His wife is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. His charitable work is great. If only he would carry that same attitude and generosity to the baseball team he owns..but alas, he chooses not to and is happy with having a franchise that only gets national attention if it is the butt of a joke.

[weams]

I think there is a limit to what the Orioles can spend with a poor attendance.

I do think that the limit could and should be higher than what it is.

PA wants to pocket the money and cry woe is me because of the economic disparity in his division.

Every interview you see with him he brings it up. Its not a coincidence.

He wants to use it as an excuse.

The bottom line is this....PA isn't committed to winning unless it happens under his terms.

A guy like Mark Cuban, for example, loves his team so much that he is willing to do what it takes to win. He will spend his money. He will bring the fans what they want.

PA is only willing to do what HE wants. But he tries to play it off as he is doing it "for the fans" by not trading certain players, building statues, putting Baltimore on the jerseys and bringing back the meaningless cartoon bird. But hey, that's good PR stuff right? That makes Joe the fan happen and because of that, PA is a "for the fans" owner.

The man is delusional. He just has no idea what he is doing yet he thinks he is the smartest person in the room. Perhaps in a courtroom, he is...but not in a baseball office.

Its a shame too...He is really a good person. His wife is one of the nicest people you will ever meet. His charitable work is great. If only he would carry that same attitude and generosity to the baseball team he owns..but alas, he chooses not to and is happy with having a franchise that only gets national attention if it is the butt of a joke.

Why did he want to swap for the Dodgers?

[NewMarketSean]

I would hope that the Orioles would be doing the same thing as the Nationals if they just finished with a .500 record.

That's the difference. It's not the MASN money. It's the situation involving the two teams. The Nats have a core in place to actually win this year. The Orioles are still trying to get to 80 wins.

Now, you also have to wonder if Angelos would sign a Fielder if the Orioles were at .500. I seriously don't think he would open up the check book that much...but we probably would have signed some slightly decent mid-tier FA like Cuddyer.

[Sports Guy]

I think the team could afford to spend 110 million or so right now. If they start to win and ticket sales go up, then that number just goes up and up.

Here is the thing though, even if you sign Fielder, this team should still have a payroll under 100 million. Why? Because they should be signing him and trading off guys like JJ, Guthrie and Jones so that we can continue to build with more depth and young talent. Put cheaper, better players around Fielder and hope guys like Wieters, Nick and Hardy hit well and that the young pitching comes to fruition because, let's face it..if the young pitching doesn't perform, this team isn't going anywhere no matter what you do offensively.

[TonySoprano]

The quotes below from Angelos are five years old, but I submit his philosophy hasn't changed. He knows he is at a competitive disadvantage with NY and Boston based on ticket sales. MASN was supposed to close the gap, to a degree. Whether or not we can spend $110 million on payroll, to be very blunt, is an exercise for mental masturbation. Indications (o.k., direct quotes) from management are it doesn't matter if we can spend that much, because we won't.

Is that really a fair system, where some teams virtually have no chance to compete? Is there anything MLB can do?

There is revenue sharing, there is a restriction on debt that can be incurred, there have been numerous recent innovations lessening that disparity. We haven't reached that point yet. It's just that kind of game.

For example, I was at a meeting in Milwaukee and everyone was talking about the most recent deal the Astros made giving [pitcher Roy] Oswalt $73 million for five years, $14.5 million a year. (chuckle) That is lunacy. He's going to pitch every fifth day. A good ballplayer and all that, but $14.5.million a year?now come on.

What does that result in? That results in those $45, $46 and $47 average ticket prices. I don't want to raise ticket prices. I want the game to be accessible. But nobody wants to talk about that, they want to talk about those nine losing seasons... The Clancys, the Geppis and all the rest of the people who joined me in buying this ballclub don't want to raise the ticket prices either.

What you end up with if you don't raise ticket prices is a payroll that is respectable at $75 million, but not enough to compete with the boys who have the $45-$47 ticket average and are putting out $130-$140-million dollar payrolls. You become the loser and they become the winner. They become the admired and you are the castigated. That's baseball; I'm not complaining.

In answer to your question, now that we have an RSN and we can move forward with it?that is going get us on a more even plane with Boston and New York, and that was the purpose. It was even more desperately needed when a team dropped right into the area you have been drawing a very substantial number of fans from for many years.

source - Pressbox, September 14, 2006

Duquette recently reiterated what I heard Angelos himself say, years ago. First, we need to get fans to the ballpark. Only then can we make a greater investment in the team.

Q: The Orioles had an $87 million dollar payroll last year. Is that going up or down?

Duquette: "Well, you know the team had a history of drawing over three million people in their heyday, back in the 90's. Last year they drew like a million-seven. They do have similarities to the Red Sox in that they have the Mid-Atlantic Sports Network, so we have our own regional sports network. That gives us another revenue generator.

"But, I think it will probably be flat this year to the extent that we build the team, make it interesting and exciting and more people will come out. Then we'll have more resources to invest in the team.

source - Steve Melewski

[NewMarketSean]

Great post. I completely agree even with the part about whether he would actually step up if we actually got to that position. I wish I was more optimistic that he would, but I tend to agree with you. I don't think he can stomach 20+ mil salaries or 100+ mil totals. I hope I'm wrong.

I can't remember who was available during the 2004-2005 offseason, but we finished with 78 wins in 2004, our best record since 1997 (and best record in this 14 year losing skid). The Orioles made zero impact moves all offseason outside of trading for Sosa in February. And when the Orioles were in first place when Bedard got hurt, they didn't trade for a SP. The big trade that year was Karim Garcia.

So I severely doubt Angelos would pony up the cash needed to get a premiere FA no matter what state the team was in.

[TonySoprano]

Tony,

I get that they aren't going to spend 110 million this year. I don't even think it is wise if they wanted to do it. I'm an advocate for hording as much as we can so we can spend more later once the foundation is right. The purpose of this "mental masturbation" is to attempt to address the pleas from the folks who can't stand that we say adding payroll won't get us there. I'm trying to objectively see if we could get there and the first step is to determine the payroll we'll use for the exercise.

Adding payroll, in a smart way, can move us in the right direction. However, if by "get us there" we're talking contention, then we can agree that's not going to happen in 2012.

I've weighed into far too many of these Fat Fielder discussions. Trenches are dug deep. Those who think we have the ability to pay him, and should pay him, are not going to be moved by any "objective" exercise. That is because their argument is based on emotion, not logic. They refuse to believe that Angelos is the one in complete control of the checkbook.

Our offseason to date has largely been guys with chick names like Dana and Taylor. Coco Crisp was the latest "hot" rumor. These stories reflect the desperation of the fan base for news of any kind. I'm bored to near-tears with all of this pointless head-banging. Schadenfreude rules the day for me when those with grandiose dreams have another melt down when all is said and done. Wake me when the weather gets warmer.

Ciao.

[Frobby]

I can't remember who was available during the 2004-2005 offseason, but we finished with 78 wins in 2004, our best record since 1997 (and best record in this 14 year losing skid). The Orioles made zero impact moves all offseason outside of trading for Sosa in February. And when the Orioles were in first place when Bedard got hurt, they didn't trade for a SP. The big trade that year was Karim Garcia.

So I severely doubt Angelos would pony up the cash needed to get a premiere FA no matter what state the team was in.

Sexson and Delgado were the main guys we chased. IMO, we made a mistake in preferring Sexson and spending a lot of time pursuing him before turning to Delgado after Sexson rejected us. If we had gone after Delgado first, we might have landed him.

[BilboBaggins]

Tony,

I get that they aren't going to spend 110 million this year. I don't even think it is wise if they wanted to do it. I'm an advocate for hording as much as we can so we can spend more later once the foundation is right. The purpose of this "mental masturbation" is to attempt to address the pleas from the folks who can't stand that we say adding payroll won't get us there. I'm trying to objectively see if we could get there and the first step is to determine the payroll we'll use for the exercise.

<Wishing the conversation wasn't dominated by repetitive posters with an agenda and no sensitivity to their own embarrassment>

You folks have regularly criticized me and a few others because of a lack of reading comprehension.

I would challenge you to find a quote from myself or EMF or Trea where we have said "let's just randomly raise the payroll for no good reason."

What I've said repeatedly is that there's NO JUST CAUSE for not signing quality free agents who we need when they are available and we can definitely afford it.

There's nothing remotely complicated about that.

People have said the same thing in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and now 2011 and the same motions by the front office will net us a 15th consecutive losing season. I'm tired of losing. I don't know how you feel.

The Orioles could easily sign Fielder and a TOR starter and manage to come under $125 million and not cripple the franchise. We've said something along these lines over and over again and all we get told is that we can't read.

[El Gordo]

You folks have regularly criticized me and a few others because of a lack of reading comprehension.

I would challenge you to find a quote from myself or EMF or Trea where we have said "let's just randomly raise the payroll for no good reason."

What I've said repeatedly is that there's NO JUST CAUSE for not signing quality free agents who we need when they are available and we can definitely afford it.

There's nothing remotely complicated about that.

People have said the same thing in 2007, 2008, 2009, 2010 and now 2011 and the same motions by the front office will net us a 15th consecutive losing season. I'm tired of losing. I don't know how you feel.

The Orioles could easily sign Fielder and a TOR starter and manage to come under $125 million and not cripple the franchise. We've said something along these lines over and over again and all we get told is that we can't read.

That would add about 45M to the payroll, so it would put us at around 120 M and increase our W's by about 8. So 120M for a 77 W team. Maybe a .500 team. Woopdedoo.

[NewMarketSean]

That would add about 45M to the payroll, so it would put us at around 120 M and increase our W's by about 8. So 120M for a 77 W team. Maybe a .500 team. Woopdedoo.

Baseball isn't played in a vacuum. If you think the pitching will improve, you add offense and a TOR to help them out even more. Not saying we should go get Fielder and a TOR, but your logic is wrong....even if your numbers turn out to be correct.

[El Gordo]

Baseball isn't played in a vacuum. If you think the pitching will improve, you add offense and a TOR to help them out even more. Not saying we should go get Fielder and a TOR, but your logic is wrong....even if your numbers turn out to be correct.

I think our SP will improve modestly, say 3-5 W's. I think Fielder plus a TOR, say Oswalt, would amount to another 8 W's. So best case is .500. And with the O's Tax you will have to pay Fielder at least 7/175 M to get him to sign, and at least 2/40M for Oswalt. So without substantial internal improvements in the following year we will have to add another 30-40M to get close to contention in 2013.

[BilboBaggins]

I think our SP will improve modestly, say 3-5 W's. I think Fielder plus a TOR, say Oswalt, would amount to another 8 W's. So best case is .500. And with the O's Tax you will have to pay Fielder at least 7/175 M to get him to sign, and at least 2/40M for Oswalt. So without substantial internal improvements in the following year we will have to add another 30-40M to get close to contention in 2013.

Didn't the Nats sign Werth and now are on the verge of signing Fielder?

You don't have to add $100 million in payroll during one off season, but you need to put the pieces together over time. This concept is completely lost on the "never spend anything ever again" crowd.

[SonOfJack]

Dude have you seen Nationals attendance numbers? They were a 500 team and finished 14th out of 16th in the NL.

DC does not support teams, the second they struggle they run away. It happens with every DC team. And Orioles fans aren't going to trek down to DC to go to a Nats game on any type of regular basis. The only time the Nationals as a team finished in the single digits in attendance was 2005, their inaugural year.

And yet, the Nationals' were higher in attendance than the Orioles in 3 of the last 4 years (and two of those years the Nats won only 59 games and 69 games, respectively). So, what do you have to say about how Baltimore residents support the O's?