Wieters is pretty bad offensively

[El Gordo]

Uh because Hamilton has a track record of being a successful hitter, for a full season, Wieters doesn't.

Baseless comparison.

Apples and Oranges. Wieters has a track record of being a decent hitting great defensive C. He still is.

[DrungoHazewood]

Pence was worth 5.4 wins last year, I'm not sure why 2011 doesn't count towards his future projections?

Counts almost as much as the 0.4 wins he's been worth this year. My projections for him going forward would be to almost match the 3 wins per 150 games he's been worth over his career.

As for running the team, the feeling is quite mutual. Because I just can't fathom hitching our wagons year after year after year on prospects, most of which won't amount to anything.

Oh wait, I can fathom it, because it's been happening since 1998.

Again, false equivalencies. You can't say most prospects are doomed because the O's addled drafting and completely ignoring foreign markets for 15 years resulted in a barren farm system. When you're contantly reaching on picks, and your only source of talent is the Rule 4 draft of course your "prospects" aren't going to all work out.

It's hard to believe that anyone would look at 15 or 20 years of Angelos' and his cronies bumbling around, destroying the organization, and blame the failures on "hitching our wagons... on prospects".

[Pedro Cerrano]

Counts almost as much as the 0.4 wins he's been worth this year. My projections for him going forward would be to almost match the 3 wins per 150 games he's been worth over his career.

Again, false equivalencies. You can't say most prospects are doomed because the O's addled drafting and completely ignoring foreign markets for 15 years resulted in a barren farm system. When you're contantly reaching on picks, and your only source of talent is the Rule 4 draft of course your "prospects" aren't going to all work out.

It's hard to believe that anyone would look at 15 or 20 years of Angelos' and his cronies bumbling around, destroying the organization, and blame the failures on "hitching our wagons... on prospects".

No, I can say most prospects are doomed because most prospects, frankly, don't reach their ceilings. There are plenty of more busts out there than hits. I'll go tit for tat if you'd like, but I think you might lose.

As for Pence, if you want to pin him in the "3 win" zone that's fine, but again, you're avoiding adding a solid piece because of a guy in Bowie who more than likely isn't going to be near the player Pence is. It just makes no sense to me.

[Nolanseye14]

Pedro.... there is no point in arguing this. Most posters on the hangout over value all Oriole players.

Obviously Philly wouldn't trade Pence straight up for schoop. The fact that posters are saying they wouldn't make that trade is mind blowing.

[DrungoHazewood]

As for Pence, if you want to pin him in the "3 win" zone that's fine, but again, you're avoiding adding a solid piece because of a guy in Bowie who more than likely isn't going to be near the player Pence is. It just makes no sense to me.

You're adding a year and half of a solid piece, in exchange for six years of Schoop. Even if Schoop just turns into Robert Andino+, a .700 OPS guy with a solid glove, that's lopsided. A solid, 2-win regular for six years at below market rates for 4-5 wins from Pence at $15-20M? I guess that's somewhat justifiable as part of a larger strategy to really bump up the talent and the payroll in the offseason. But Pence certainly isn't going to turn a 75-80 win team into an instant contender. He's maybe a win or two a year better than Chris Davis in left.

And if Schoop really busts out... well, the trade isn't just ugly, it's really ugly. Most of the biggest lopsided trades in history are prospect(s) for pretty good established guy. The Tigers probably thought a lot like you when they dealt Chris Hoiles for Fred Lynn. Or John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander.

[DrungoHazewood]

Pedro.... there is no point in arguing this. Most posters on the hangout over value all Oriole players.

Obviously Philly wouldn't trade Pence straight up for schoop. The fact that posters are saying they wouldn't make that trade is mind blowing.

No? Why not? Didn't the Dodgers just acquire Hanley Ramirez+ for the pre-2012 #96 BA prospect and a throw in? Didn't the Astros just unload Wandy Rodriguez for three middling minor leaguers, none of whom ever touched the BA top 100? After deals like that it's impossible to imagine the #82 prospect and maybe a throw in for 1 1/2 years of a slumping Hunter Pence? You may need to dial back your Orioles cynicism a bit.

[Il BuonO]

No? Why not? Didn't the Dodgers just acquire Hanley Ramirez+ for the pre-2012 #96 BA prospect and a throw in? Didn't the Astros just unload Wandy Rodriguez for three middling minor leaguers, none of whom ever touched the BA top 100? After deals like that it's impossible to imagine the #82 prospect and maybe a throw in for 1 1/2 years of a slumping Hunter Pence? You may need to dial back your Orioles cynicism a bit.

Yeah, I don't get the people who are constantly falling all over themselves for MLB talent that just doesn't measure up. We need to develop talent. That hasn't happened, but DH is right. We've hardly been drawing from all possible pools out there. Schoop may represent just the beginning of what our resources become. That doesn't make him untouchable, but can we at least make an informed decision before we give him away?

[Pickles]

You're adding a year and half of a solid piece, in exchange for six years of Schoop. Even if Schoop just turns into Robert Andino+, a .700 OPS guy with a solid glove, that's lopsided. A solid, 2-win regular for six years at below market rates for 4-5 wins from Pence at $15-20M? I guess that's somewhat justifiable as part of a larger strategy to really bump up the talent and the payroll in the offseason. But Pence certainly isn't going to turn a 75-80 win team into an instant contender. He's maybe a win or two a year better than Chris Davis in left.

And if Schoop really busts out... well, the trade isn't just ugly, it's really ugly. Most of the biggest lopsided trades in history are prospect(s) for pretty good established guy. The Tigers probably thought a lot like you when they dealt Chris Hoiles for Fred Lynn. Or John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander.

See, the problem w this kind of analysis imo, is if Schoop does indeed become Andino (and obviously we don't know) is getting an Andino is not very costly.

I really think you only regret these trades if the guy you ship out becomes a star. Even replacing a regular isn't that cost-prohibitive.

Mind you, I'm speaking in the abstract. I'm not commenting on this specific proposal.

[DrungoHazewood]

I really think you only regret these trades if the guy you ship out becomes a star. Even replacing a regular isn't that cost-prohibitive.

It all depends. The going rate of a win in free agency is about $5M. An average regular is a 2-win player, so you're looking at $10M per average regular per year on the free agent market. To compete with a reasonable payroll the O's have to fill maybe half their 14 regular/rotation spots with pre-free agency talent. If it's not particularly hard to come up with an average regular at a reasonable cost why do the O's have 4-5 holes that need filling?

[alaniee]

Wow. This is something.

[Pickles]

It all depends. The going rate of a win in free agency is about $5M. An average regular is a 2-win player, so you're looking at $10M per average regular per year on the free agent market. To compete with a reasonable payroll the O's have to fill maybe half their 14 regular/rotation spots with pre-free agency talent. If it's not particularly hard to come up with an average regular at a reasonable cost why do the O's have 4-5 holes that need filling?

Do they? I would say their problem, on the positional side of things, is that they don't have star power, not that they have gaping holes anywhere.

[El Gordo]

Do they? I would say their problem, on the positional side of things, is that they don't have star power, not that they have gaping holes anywhere.

Star power? The O's have 2 SP currently they can count on for consistent QS. They have a bunch of bats that hit for power but precious few that can get on base. None of that, 2 additional SP to give them QS, and 2 additional bats to give them .350+ OBP, constitutes "star power".

[DrungoHazewood]

Do they? I would say their problem, on the positional side of things, is that they don't have star power, not that they have gaping holes anywhere.

In left field they currently have a first baseman, at second base they have a platoon of a 31-year-old AAA journeyman and a Rule 5er, at third they have platoon DH, their DH is Jim Thome who's as old as me and almost certainly won't be back for '13. In the rotation they have some talent, but only two starters who've thrown 100 innings to an ERA under 5.00. I think there's 4-5 holes in there.

[Jonesy10]

It's amazing how bad of a left handed hitter he is. Weak swing, weak ground balls, weak fly balls, and even his occasional hit is weak. Maybe he should go to more of a closed stance as a lefty (more like his righty stance)... But either way, every time he comes to the plate left handed he looks unconfident and overmatched

[Trackmaster]

Ugh... I didn't feel like reading 8 pages of threads so that I could respond to the OP. Understand that I haven't read everything, and that this just applies to the OP, apologies if its already been brought up:

Weiters is an All-Star because of his defense, not his offense. Assuming that it's because it's his offense that we care about is like being a fan of Anna Kourakova because of her tennis skills, or reading Playboy for its article.