Could Tillman be the Orioles 1st 20 Game Winner in a long time?

[Can_of_corn]

If that's a concern, we may want to sit Davis after the break.

allquixotic said there were "no good outcomes", I provided a good outcome. It would probably be beneficial to the O's payroll if Tillman won 15 instead of 20 and those other 5 wins were distributed amongst the bullpen. The same is true with Johnson and saves.

[DrungoHazewood]

Wins can imply many things. Durability, ability to pitch deep into a game, effective pitching etc. Obviously, there are better metrics, but wins seem to be taking more of a beating than they should.

Team wins are great. But assigning them to individual pitchers based on rules that only kind of made sense in the deadball era when starters completed 80% of their games? That deserves to take a beating.

Now... if you want to talk about redefining the win to be more relevant to today's game? I'm on board with that.

[Can_of_corn]

Wins can imply many things. Durability, ability to pitch deep into a game, effective pitching etc. Obviously, there are better metrics, but wins seem to be taking more of a beating than they should.

I think Wins got too much credit for way too long. I think they are closer to being properly evaluated now then any time in the past.

[waroriole]

Team wins are great. But assigning them to individual pitchers based on rules that only kind of made sense in the deadball era when starters completed 80% of their games? That deserves to take a beating.

Now... if you want to talk about redefining the win to be more relevant to today's game? I'm on board with that.

How would you redefine it? Are you talking about splitting the win? For example, last night Tillman takes .8 W and Asencio takes .2?

[DrungoHazewood]

I think Wins got too much credit for way too long. I think they are closer to being properly evaluated now then any time in the past.

It was a great day when Felix Hernandez won the Cy Young despite not leading the league in being on the mound at the end of the half inning prior to when his team took the lead and then held onto it.

[DrungoHazewood]

How would you redefine it? Are you talking about splitting the win? For example, last night Tillman takes .8 W and Asencio takes .2?

My idea is to simply direct the official scorer to give the win to the pitcher he deems to have pitched best on the winning team. So if you win in 18 but the starter threw 7 innings of 1-run ball he could get the win.

[Can_of_corn]

How would you redefine it? Are you talking about splitting the win? For example, last night Tillman takes .8 W and Asencio takes .2?

First thing I would do would be to give the OS the ability to take vultured wins away from relief pitchers.

My biggest fault with the win is that a RP can come in, blow the save and then have the offense score runs and hand him the win.

[Pickles]

My idea is to simply direct the official scorer to give the win to the pitcher he deems to have pitched best on the winning team. So if you win in 18 but the starter threw 7 innings of 1-run ball he could get the win.

So your idea is to make it MORE subjective.

Interesting.

[Pickles]

You don't have to change the win rule.

You simply have to know how to evaluate it within its proper context, and its limitations.

It isn't that hard to figure out.

[ledzepp8]

where is the "pitcher wins need to die already" option

I don't get this argument at all. I mean I understand that comparing individual pitchers based purely on wins doesn't tell the whole story. But obviously your pitchers need to win games. I guess I'm just lost on the "pitcher wins need to die" thing.

[Pickles]

I don't get this argument at all. I mean I understand that comparing individual pitchers based purely on wins doesn't tell the whole story. But obviously your pitchers need to win games. I guess I'm just lost on the "pitcher wins need to die" thing.

C'mon bro, you gotta get hip!

[Can_of_corn]

I don't get this argument at all. I mean I understand that comparing individual pitchers based purely on wins doesn't tell the whole story. But obviously your pitchers need to win games. I guess I'm just lost on the "pitcher wins need to die" thing.

Just try and view wins as a team stat instead of an individual one.

[ledzepp8]

Just try and view wins as a team stat instead of an individual one.

So they should only be attributed to the team as a whole and not to any individual pitcher?

[Pickles]

Just try and view wins as a team stat instead of an individual one.

Does the same hold true for runs?

[DrungoHazewood]

So they should only be attributed to the team as a whole and not to any individual pitcher?

That would certainly be better than the status quo. We don't say Joe Flacco was 11-5, do we? Or that LeBron was 56-22? So why do we take the contributions of an entire team and give credit for the win to a guy who may not have been responsible for 1/3rd of the credit?