Four reason why Schoop didn't lose the game!

[eddie83]

Schoop has to cover 3rd until Flaherty gets over and make sure the ball is not thrown to 3rd. With the OF playing in, that's a direct from OF to Home throw.. Every day of week and twice on Sunday that throw will not be cut off with out the catcher calling for it.

Here is where I just don't agree. Who cares about covering 3rd. He needs to be in a cut off position, that his is main job on that play. I am not worried about doubling off the runner.

[eddie83]

Having not seen the game, these arguments are all pretty incoherent.

Lough made a bad throw. The ball was still a ball that could of been cut off. The debate is whether Schoop should of cut the ball off or not. IMO a more experienced 3rd basemen cuts the ball off. Once again Lough's bad throw caused the issue but Schoop literally turned away from the ball.

[russ snyder]

Schoop has to cover 3rd until Flaherty gets over and make sure the ball is not thrown to 3rd. With the OF playing in, that's a direct from OF to Home throw.. Every day of week and twice on Sunday that throw will not be cut off with out the catcher calling for it.

No he doesn't. The runner was coming back to tag up.

There is no way Flaherty can cover third on that play.

If Schoop is in his cut off position, the odds are that that ball is either cut, or thrown on line to Wieters.

The winning run is on third and the fundamental play is to keep him from scoring. Schoop setting up late and being out of postion contributed more to the errant throw than anything else.

The bottom line is that the Orioles deserved to lose the game. That was a brutal defensive display by the team the last couple of innings.

[eddie83]

Doesn't matter, YOU DON'T stop. Flaherty didn't duck, He kneed down and watched as the throw wasn't coming of SS position but 3rd base. You keep moving in case of a run down.

Schoop's job isn't to be a cut off man when Flaherty is on his knee watching the play and NOT moving towards 3rd. What if Weiters stopped the ball or O'Day got it and nobody was on 3rd and Pedroia was stuck in no man's land. That's why Flaherty has to keep moving.

OF is playing in. Cut offs aren't gonna happen on an assumed play at the plate. It all comes down to Lough's throw.

Flaherty could of ran over to 3rd to get into a rundown play. We will never know.

You keep bringing up covering 3rd, your main concern is the run scoring or not, not covering 3rd.

[BradyBunch]

I think that you need to look at the video that you posted. Lough's throw hits about 40 feet up the left field line and skips to the left. That is a good 15 to 20 feet to Wieters' left. There is no way that he could have stopped it. Further, while O'day was backing up the play, there was nothing that he could do because the throw was so off line. Schoop was not able to cut the ball because he was late setting up the throw for Wieters. Further, all infielders have the right to cut off dying or off line throws on their own. I'm not blaming Schoop for the loss, but his late set up contributed to Lough's errant throw more than anything else on this play.

I have watched. The ball comes between 3rd baseline and the Fungo circle..then watch were the ball comes near home plate. It crosses the dirt of home plate by the grass, about 10ft from home. That's a ball Weiters can get to.

O'Day was on the wrong side of the catcher. O'Day needed to be on 3rd base side. Not 1st base side.

The throw was tailing away from Schoop towards the pitcher mound. So it was semi-online and tailing from him.

His late set up had nothing to with Lough's errant throw. Lough throw that ball towards home, not where a "cut off" man was.

[LarryHarlow]

If you're talking about whether Schoop lost us the game, I'd look more at the play when we were up 5-4 with bases loaded and one out. He has to know who the runners are. You have Sizemore on 3rd, Ortiz on 1st, and Napoli at bat. He should be thinking ahead of time if the ball comes to me I'm going to 2nd to start the DP...

[eddie83]

I have watched. The ball comes between 3rd baseline and the Fungo circle..then watch were the ball comes near home plate. It crosses the dirt of home plate by the grass, about 10ft from home. That's a ball Weiters can get to.

O'Day was on the wrong side of the catcher. O'Day needed to be on 3rd base side. Not 1st base side.

The throw was tailing away from Schoop towards the pitcher mound. So it was semi-online and tailing from him.

His late set up had nothing to with Lough's errant throw. Lough throw that ball towards home, not where a "cut off" man was.

Why would O'Day be on the 3rd base side on a throw from left field. That makes no sense. A throw from right field has a better chance of going to the 3rd base side.

If Wieters goes after the ball he is in a foot race to home with Pedroia. I have never seem a catcher go that far away to get a ball in my life.

[BradyBunch]

No he doesn't. The runner was coming back to tag up.

Pedroia tagged up when the ball was caught. Or the game would have been in the 10th inning after the O's decided to challenge at 3rd because Pedroia didn't touch 3rd when the ball was in air.

There is no way Flaherty can cover third on that play.

Flaherty has to get to 3rd on that play.. not stop and watch the ball. As it's job to cover 3rd if you are expect Schoop to be cut off. It's baseball 101.

If Schoop is in his cut off position, the odds are that that ball is either cut, or thrown on line to Wieters.

No, You can't fix a throwing mistake by an outfielder by having a cut off man in the right spot. Also, Weiters would have had to call for a cut as Schoop is gonna assume the runner is going home as Pedroia was moving that way.

The winning run is on third and the fundamental play is to keep him from scoring. Schoop setting up late and being out of postion contributed more to the errant throw than anything else.

No, a bad throw is gonna be a bad throw despite where the "cut off" man is. That play is always a OF to Catcher throw. The "cut off" man is ignored.

[mdbdotcom]

Watch the video again. Pedroia never tagged up. Unfortunately, once the umpire called Pedroia safe at home, the game was over and there was no time to appeal. Buck attempted to challenge, but there should have been an appeal play.

As for all the other stuff the OP has suggested, it doesn't add up to me.

At the five second mark, as the line drive is going passed the infield, you see Flaherty moving to position himself for a possible cutoff and Schoop moving to third.

As Lough throws, Schoop is standing at 3B and then moves as if to cutoff the throw, but doesn't grab it. Flaherty has gone to one knee because he knows Lough has the arm to make that short throw right to the plate. That doesn't mean he wouldn't/couldn't move to a backup position at 3B had a rundown ensued. Also, if Flaherty had kept going he would not have gotten to that throw, which was way off line.

It was such a short throw and so off line that O'Day, who was behind the plate as he should have been, didn't have a chance to snag it before it hit the wall and bounced to the other side of the plate.

Bottom line (IMHO), Lough botched the throw and Pedroia got away with not tagging up. Flaherty did nothing wrong. Schoop could have been a hero by catching that ball, but he can't be blamed for not doing so, as it was such a bang-bang play. Maybe Manny intercepts that ball and beats Pedroia back to the bag, but you can't blame Schoop for not being Manny.

[eddie83]

Pedroia tagged up, look at it again.

[BradyBunch]

Why would O'Day be on the 3rd base side on a throw from left field. That makes no sense. A throw from right field has a better chance of going to the 3rd base side.

If Wieters goes after the ball he is in a foot race to home with Pedroia. I have never seem a catcher go that far away to get a ball in my life.

It does.. Take the foul lines and extend it through the batters box to the back stop . The pitcher should be on the left side of 3rd base line (basically just left of the catcher) or if the throw is coming from RF, right of the 1st baseline (just right of the catcher). This is only for direct throws to home. The ball has a better chance of trailing/ bouncing to glove side of thrower as the throw tends to be "overcooked". Sorta like last night. Difference tonight was there was spin on the ball.

But as you claimed earlier Pedroia wasn't going. He was bluffing. :thumbsup1:

[mdbdotcom]

Pedroia tagged up, look at it again.

Possibly. Probably. He does head back before the catch (which I missed before). What happened on the O's side of things is still on Lough.

[BradyBunch]

Here is where I just don't agree. Who cares about covering 3rd. He needs to be in a cut off position, that his is main job on that play. I am not worried about doubling off the runner.

OF was playing in.. It was a OF to home throw.

[stillofan]

If Lombardozzi could have hit the ball further than the pitcher in the 9th with Jones on 3rd, the play in bottom of 10 would never have happened.

[BradyBunch]

Lough made a bad throw. The ball was still a ball that could of been cut off. The debate is whether Schoop should of cut the ball off or not. IMO a more experienced 3rd basemen cuts the ball off. Once again Lough's bad throw caused the issue but Schoop literally turned away from the ball.

Again, we have no reason to believe Schoop was told to cut it off. It's up to Veterans to say cut it off or not to. I would even guess Manny may have let it go as well because it has to be assumed Pedroia is going home when he tags.