Four reason why Schoop didn't lose the game!

[Frobby]

Seems to me that with one out in a tie game in the 9th and the bases loaded, the throw is going home to prevent the runner on 3rd from scoring. I wouldn't have expected the throw to be cut off. The only reason it's in question is because Lough rushed his throw and it was way off line. I do think where that throw was, Schoop should have realized it was off line and caught it.

[mdbdotcom]

Seems to me that with one out in a tie game in the 9th and the bases loaded, the throw is going home to prevent the runner on 3rd from scoring. I wouldn't have expected the throw to be cut off. The only reason it's in question is because Lough rushed his throw and it was way off line.

I agree, but Lough says he threw the ball to be cut off. That raises the question, when there is no infielder aligned with home plate, should the outfielder throw home or to an infielder?

[LA2]

Having watched the replay a few times now both in real time and in slow motion here is my take:

Starting from when Lough catches the ball Flaherty is practically on the baseline between second and third and doesn't really have time to get over to cover third unless the play goes so long as to induce a run down. In that case I believe he would have made it over there just fine. To be clear, the ensuing outcome of the play had nothing to do with Flaherty.

Once the ball is caught by Lough, Schoop looks kind of lost. He initially goes to cover third, but when Lough is winding up for the throw he scrambles off the base into a makeshift cut-off position. This is where everything gets tricky because we don't know what the players were thinking as everything was playing out.

Here is what I think happened:

Schoop left the bag late realizing he needed to be the cut-off guy no matter what. That is his job in that situation, regardless of how shallow Lough was on the throw. Doubling the runner up at third is not the priority, it's making sure he does not score. However, I also think Stotle's argument is a fair one -- this is the highest level of baseball there is. That throw gets made on the fly 90% of the time and 99% of the time Lough will make a more accurate throw.

The throw comes in and it literally whizzes right by Schoop's head/glove.

A couple of things here:

- I think Wieters sees Schoop coming off from the bag at the last minute, and along with the trajectory of the throw, thinks Schoop is going to cut it off. Lough is so shallow that everyone knew Pedroia wasn't going to tag. The only person who might even consider running there is Billy Hamilton.

- Wieters stays in position covering home thinking the throw will be cut. When it isn't cut he doesn't have enough time to go the 10-15 feet to his left to stop the ball form going to the backstop.

- O'Day may have been able to position himself a little better but holy cow was that a bad throw by Lough. Seriously, that could not have been worse. You have to assume he's throwing all the way through to the plate there given the situation even though it turned out Schoop was right there to cut it. If that was in face the case then a good chunk of blame has to go to Lough there. You simply have to make a better throw.

- I still have to hand some of the blame to Schoop. He does not need the blessing from Wieters to cut that throw off. It is also his job to line himself up with Wieters, not the other way around. The whole point of him being out there to cut off a throw on that play is to prevent a disastrous play at the plate from a bad throw, not double off the runner at 3rd. If that happens - great - but that is not the intent.

Bottom line is despite Schoop's actions at third, a good throw by Lough prevents all of this. He's a good defender and has a very strong arm but this was not his finest moment.

Thanks for the clear, comprehensive view on this excruciating event.

[El Gordo]

If Lough makes a better throw the run doesn't score. If Schoop has the presence of mind to cut it off, the run doesn't score. If O'Day does a better job backing up the play the run doesn't score, and who knows if Buck makes an appeal play at 3B perhaps the run doesn't score. Plenty of blame to go around. The Orioles were an embarrassment last night

[bobmc]

From Roch, here is what Buck and Schoop said:

Man up! Jon is the man! :clap3: As Buck said - a lot of moving parts...

[LA2]

If Lough makes a better throw the run doesn't score. If Schoop has the presence of mind to cut it off, the run doesn't score. If O'Day does a better job backing up the play the run doesn't score, and who knows if Buck makes an appeal play at 3B perhaps the run doesn't score. Plenty of blame to go around. The Orioles were an embarrassment last night

Opening Day in Yankee Stadium and on ESPN Sunday night in Fenway during Boston Strong Weekend--truly embarrassing. But just as we went on to win the series vs. the Y's, let's even it up against the Sox today.

[CA-ORIOLE]

If Lough makes a better throw the run doesn't score. If Schoop has the presence of mind to cut it off, the run doesn't score. If O'Day does a better job backing up the play the run doesn't score, and who knows if Buck makes an appeal play at 3B perhaps the run doesn't score. Plenty of blame to go around. The Orioles were an embarrassment last night

The bolded part is known. The run scores.

[epic]

Now it's come out that Lough was in fact throwing directly to Schoop. In that case he hit his target perfectly. That's also not a bad play either. It doesn't happen very often in the majors considering the situation and his distance from the plate but I can see why he did it.

It now seems like Schoop, Lough, and Wieters were not on the same page in terms of cutting it off. There's no short-term preparation for that either. That's instincts.

[Dipper9]

Now it's come out that Lough was in fact throwing directly to Schoop. In that case he hit his target perfectly. That's also not a bad play either. It doesn't happen very often in the majors considering the situation and his distance from the plate but I can see why he did it.

It now seems like Schoop, Lough, and Wieters were not on the same page in terms of cutting it off. There's no short-term preparation for that either. That's instincts.

True, but the only thing I'll add is Schoop should have known how far offline the throw was coming and cut it off. Period.

As for this entire play, we're beating ourselves up over nothing. The way the Orioles blew that 5-0 lead last night, the next batter would have ended it anyway. That game was lost as soon as Mr. Helmet Adjustment Man went yard.

[sfosfan]

My points do make sense, you just want to blame Schoop for it all. Despite the fact it's not his fault.

1) If no runner is coming is when you cut that throw off. Pedroia already tagged and was a good 20ft down 3rd. Then stopped and went back as the ball came past Schoop.

2) It's not Schoop's call to cut off the throw. The catcher (Wieters) either calls Cut or No Cut. If Wieters doesn't call for the cut, the ball is let go. End of Story. This is stuff you learn in little league.

3) Weiters job is if the cut isn't called is to go after that ball because the pitcher moves to cover at home. It's why you see catchers up the line catching a ball from time to time.

4) Catchers job is not to protect the plate anymore. Rule change. Weiters has to give runners a part of the plate free and clear. So him standing on home is pointless now.

Count me in the the camp that blames Schoop. Yes there were other things wrong with the play. But Schoop chose to be a matador and get out of the way when he easily could have caught the ball. Pedroia was already heading back to third, so Schoop didn't need to let the ball through- bad choice on his part. Matt didn't have much time to react to the offline throw because he most likely, didn't expect the cut off man to let the ball through. the cutoff man catches the ball, the run doesn't score. That's all there is to it.

[ledzepp8]

Let's ignore Lough claiming he was throwing to a cut off man...he's probably trying to save a little face. Let's assume Schoop isn't there to be cut off and let's assume that Lough is throwing to home. Bottom line is Schoop was in position to cut off an errant throw and he has to be cognizant to the fact that the throw is going to be way off line and letting it through spells certain disaster. He has to then cut that off. I think he just didn't expect the ball on him that quickly and flinched at it.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

[TGO]

I think it's fair to spread the blame around on that play to all three parties (Schoop, Lough, Wieters). Schoop and Lough have been discussed at length but I agree with the comment earlier in the thread that Wieters has to make an attempt to go block that ball. He's the one with the entire play in front of him. Pedroia didn't decide to run until the ball got by Wieters.

Schoop should have just stayed where he was on the bag because the play developed too fast for him to get to the right cut position anyway. The fact that he wandered back into the grass probably did impact Lough's target on his throw.

[epic]

True, but the only thing I'll add is Schoop should have known how far offline the throw was coming and cut it off. Period.

As for this entire play, we're beating ourselves up over nothing. The way the Orioles blew that 5-0 lead last night, the next batter would have ended it anyway. That game was lost as soon as Mr. Helmet Adjustment Man went yard.

I agree. Schoop has to cut that ball off.

Live, learn, and move on. Let's hope they don't find a way to give away today's game too.

[Rex Thunder]

The pitcher backs up the throw not the catcher. If Wieters goes after the throw then who covers home? Wieters would have to run all the way back to the base. I wasn't talking about literally protecting the plate. The pitchers role is to back up the throw. I am not arguing it was a good throw. That throw was off line by a lot, I am not arguing that point. With that being said it was a cuttable throw.

If you think Pedroia was trying to score there then I don't know what to tell you. He had zero intention of going home. Yes, Wieters could of yelled cut but Schoop saw where the runner was.

Ummm, seriously? I really doubt he saw Pedroia. Had he seen him, I think he WOULD have cut the ball off. The whole point was he was concentrating on thew throw and DID NOT know Pedroia had scampered back to 3rd.

[eddie83]

Ummm, seriously? I really doubt he saw Pedroia. Had he seen him, I think he WOULD have cut the ball off. The whole point was he was concentrating on thew throw and DID NOT know Pedroia had scampered back to 3rd.

He said he saw Pedroia tag up.

Stotle says teams don't use a cut off there. I respect his thoughts. My point is Schoop should of known there was no way Dustin could of scored there. Why let a ball go through on a play where the runner wasn't coming home? If the runner isn't down the line, cut the ball off.

Just glad we won today or I honestly think my TV might of been broken.