You Mean To Tell Me That We Can't Do Better Than Flaherty?

[bobmc]

Most teams have some kind of utility player who can't really hit:

                                                                                                                                                                Rk              Player WAR/pos From   To   Age   G  PA  AB  R   H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB  SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS        Pos                  Tm1        Justin Turner     2.4 2013 2014 28-29 141 380 351 32 101 22  1  5  35 23   1  64   2  1  3   9  2  1 .288 .332 .399 .731   /5H643D7             NYM-LAD2           Nick Punto     2.3 2013 2014 35-36 159 481 420 50 104 20  0  3  31 52   0 105   0  7  2   7  5  4 .248 .329 .317 .646    /465HD9             LAD-OAK3        Josh Harrison     2.1 2013 2014 25-26 120 293 272 37  78 11  5  8  36 14   1  37   4  2  1   7  7  3 .287 .330 .452 .782  /H945671D                 PIT4             Ed Lucas     1.3 2013 2014 31-32 129 492 450 57 116 15  1  5  33 33   1 104   2  6  1   9  1  1 .258 .311 .329 .640   /5436H79                 MIA5       Ramon Santiago     1.3 2013 2014 33-34 105 293 255 33  57  9  1  1  15 26   0  45   2  9  1   2  0  1 .224 .299 .278 .578     /465H7             DET-CIN6      Eduardo Escobar     1.2 2013 2014 24-25 128 388 357 44  96 27  2  5  26 25   1  76   0  4  2   3  1  3 .269 .315 .398 .713  /*65H478D                 MIN7          Mike Aviles     0.9 2013 2014 32-33 178 585 538 76 137 22  0 12  67 21   0  69   3 13 10  18 15  7 .255 .281 .362 .644  /564H7D98                 CLE8    Yangervis Solarte     0.9 2014 2014 26-26  67 263 229 26  61 14  0  6  30 28   0  31   2  1  3   8  0  0 .266 .347 .406 .753     /*546H                 NYY9          Josh Wilson     0.9 2013 2014 32-33  54 137 127 16  28  5  1  1  12  7   0  31   1  2  0   9  1  0 .220 .267 .299 .566     /*4H56             ARI-TEX10          Jayson Nix     0.8 2013 2014 30-31 105 346 306 33  69  9  1  4  26 26   1  98   6  4  3   5 13  3 .225 .296 .301 .597      /65H4             NYY-PHI11         Ramiro Pena     0.8 2013 2014 27-28  96 204 185 21  45  8  1  6  20 15   1  44   0  3  1   1  0  2 .243 .299 .395 .693      /54H6                 ATL12      Elliot Johnson     0.6 2013 2014 29-30 118 295 273 28  55  9  3  2  19 16   1  74   0  5  1   4 22  2 .201 .245 .278 .523  /*4H6579D         ATL-KCR-CLE13       Ryan Flaherty     0.5 2013 2014 26-27 122 399 362 40  80 16  0 12  37 27   4  89   8  2  0   4  2  0 .221 .290 .365 .654 /*456H3D79                 BAL14        Jeff Bianchi     0.4 2013 2014 26-27 121 310 291 24  64  8  1  1  29 13   0  62   1  2  3   4  4  4 .220 .253 .265 .518     /5H647                 MIL15     Marwin Gonzalez     0.2 2013 2014 24-25 115 323 295 33  69 12  0  6  18 16   0  56   2  9  1   9  6  4 .234 .277 .336 .613 /*6H457D39                 HOU16       Andrew Romine     0.2 2013 2014 27-28  93 264 238 23  56  6  0  1  16 17   0  58   1  7  1   4  5  1 .235 .288 .273 .561    /*65H4D             LAA-DET17   Willie Bloomquist     0.1 2013 2014 35-36  80 252 236 26  71 10  1  1  25 11   1  33   2  1  2   4  0  3 .301 .335 .364 .699  /4H6735D9             ARI-SEA18      Logan Forsythe     0.1 2013 2014 26-27 128 384 350 33  74 12  1  6  24 25   2  78   5  1  3  11  6  1 .211 .272 .303 .574  /4HD57693             SDP-TBR19        Leury Garcia    -0.0 2013 2014 22-23  81 173 157 19  33  4  1  1   4 11   1  53   0  4  1   1 14  3 .210 .260 .268 .528  /4H856D71             TEX-CHW20    Jurickson Profar     0.0 2013 2013 20-20  85 324 286 30  67 11  0  6  26 26   0  63   5  6  1   1  2  4 .234 .308 .336 .644    /4D65H7                 TEX21    Jonathan Herrera    -0.1 2013 2014 28-29 120 312 279 25  76  8  4  1  24 21   3  46   2  7  3   9  4  5 .272 .325 .341 .665   /64H57D3             COL-BOS22    Alberto Gonzalez    -0.1 2013 2013 30-30  24  60  57  6  11  2  0  1   6  2   1  12   0  0  1   2  0  0 .193 .217 .281 .497   /45679H1             CHC-NYY23     Daniel Descalso    -0.2 2013 2014 26-27 168 432 396 49  90 28  1  5  46 26   5  74   4  4  2   8  7  3 .227 .280 .341 .621     /64H51                 STL24         Paul Janish    -0.3 2013 2013 30-30  52  45  41  7   7  2  0  0   2  3   0  11   0  0  1   3  0  0 .171 .222 .220 .442     /*5H46                 ATL25       Joaquin Arias    -0.4 2013 2014 28-29 155 331 314 22  77  9  2  1  26  8   3  43   1  5  3   5  1  0 .245 .264 .296 .560    /*5H643                 SFGRk              Player WAR/pos From   To   Age   G  PA  AB  R   H 2B 3B HR RBI BB IBB  SO HBP SH SF GDP SB CS   BA  OBP  SLG  OPS        Pos                  Tm26       John McDonald    -0.4 2013 2014 38-39  88 124 108  9  17  2  0  1   8 10   0  24   2  3  1   5  1  0 .157 .240 .204 .443   /56H471D PIT-PHI-CLE-BOS-LAA27      Brendan Harris    -0.5 2013 2013 32-32  44 117 107 14  22  4  0  4   9  6   0  29   1  2  1   2  0  1 .206 .252 .355 .607   /6H5347D                 LAA28      Alexi Amarista    -0.6 2013 2014 24-25 210 552 509 49 116 19  5  6  41 34   2  83   2  5  2  10  8  3 .228 .278 .320 .598    8/H4567                 SDP29      Maicer Izturis    -0.6 2013 2014 32-33 118 437 400 36  96 13  0  5  33 29   0  42   1  4  3  11  2  5 .240 .291 .310 .601     /*456H                 TOR30       Pedro Ciriaco    -0.7 2013 2014 27-28  78 186 172 16  38  6  2  2  10  9   2  32   2  2  1   4 12  1 .221 .266 .314 .580    /6H45D3         SDP-KCR-BOS31       Chris Valaika    -0.7 2013 2013 27-27  22  70  64  4  14  5  0  1   9  3   0  16   1  1  1   2  0  0 .219 .261 .344 .605     /64H53                 MIA32   Charlie Culberson    -0.8 2013 2014 24-25  94 216 202 19  49 10  1  3  21  8   2  51   3  2  1   9  6  2 .243 .280 .347 .627     /H7564                 COL33       Freddy Galvis    -1.0 2013 2014 23-24  86 268 247 15  50  5  4  6  20 16   2  57   1  3  1   5  1  0 .202 .253 .328 .581     /54H67                 PHI

The O's have chosen to go with a defense-first bench. Lough is hurting the team, in that they might have wished/hoped/dreamed he'd repeat his .700+ OPS from last year, and vs. righties he might have been a decent pinch hitter.

Flaherty has a career .643 OPS, and most players take a ~.100 point penalty while pinch hitting, so there aren't too many guys on MLB rosters (besides pitchers) you'd want a .550 guy hitting for. As someone else mentioned he's 4-for-20 actually pinch hitting with 7 Ks, which roughly fits, at least as far as microscopic samples go.

So basically what OldFan said.....:wedge:

Let's not talk about other posters unless it's a compliment as above.

[weams]

I wish we had Jim Thome Circa 2002 on the bench for that occasion. I really do.

[weams]

So basically what OldFan said.....:wedge:

Who did I compliment?

[bobmc]

Who did I compliment?

Er I meant myself who mentioned a poster's name in a "positive light"....

[MrOrange82]

Most teams have some kind of utility player who can't really hit:

...

The O's have chosen to go with a defense-first bench. Lough is hurting the team, in that they might have wished/hoped/dreamed he'd repeat his .700+ OPS from last year, and vs. righties he might have been a decent pinch hitter.

Flaherty has a career .643 OPS, and most players take a ~.100 point penalty while pinch hitting, so there aren't too many guys on MLB rosters (besides pitchers) you'd want a .550 guy hitting for. As someone else mentioned he's 4-for-20 actually pinch hitting with 7 Ks, which roughly fits, at least as far as microscopic samples go.

Indeed they have.

Disclaimer: what follows is a half-baked post. I was looking around for something that quantifies exactly how bad the "benches" of MLB teams actually are. Take this for what it's worth, but I found something posted on The Hardball Times from December of last year that attempted, in part, to look at the number of runs created each team's bench tallied last season. Here's what they came up with:

Marginal Position Players

Let’s use the old Bill James stat Runs Created for these guys. More specifically, we’ll see how many runs each bench created versus how many outs each created. Then we’ll compare that to how many runs they would’ve created if the marginal players hit like league-average players, which typically deliver 20 runs worth of value.

This system has the benefit of not only seeing how they did, but seeing how they did in the context. Oh, and it adjusts for park (of course). Finally, please note we’re excluding pitcher batting. Position players are supposed to hit as part of their job. Pitchers aren’t.

Again, we’d expect benches to hit worse than average. After all, by definition, backups should be below average. But the question is how much worse than average some of these benches are.

Well, do all the appropriate mathematical hokey-pokey, and here are the results (listed in terms of runs):

Team Bench

BOX 63.0

CLE 48.1

CHC 37.3

PIT 36.1

SDP 25.6

TEX 24.9

TBR 22.2

ARI 19.9

NYM 16.2

ATL 13.5

LAA 12.9

OAK 10.4

KCR -3.8

SEA -3.9

MIN -7.6

DET -7.8

LAD -7.9

SFG -8.7

STL -8.8

PHI -10.5

TOR -14.0

CIN -14.9

MIL -15.1

MIA -16.4

COL -17.0

BAL -25.6

NYY -25.7

HOU -32.6

DCN -42.5

CWS -45.3

Seven teams had above-average benches offensively (and Tampa was within a run of average). I wouldn’t have guessed that many, but there you go. The Cubs, please note, actually had better offensive production from their bench players than their starting players. That’s a sign of a really good bench … or really bad starters. Or both.

As for the playoff situation, all three clubs vying for the two AL Wild Card slots had terrific batting benches, but the performance of Cleveland’s backups may have made the difference for the Tribe.

If you were to just look at benches in a RC/27 outs basis—that is, as a rate stat and without regard to playing time—the Nationals would have the worst bench in baseball. Luckily for them, they didn’t have to use their bench as much as Houston or the White Sox relied on theirs.

If you add it up, benches combined to create 606 fewer runs than league-average hitters would create in that same span. Thus, an average bench was 20 runs below average. So Boston gained about six wins more than a typical team would’ve thanks to its bench plus (plus four instead of minus two).

I really don't feel like chasing down the numbers for teams this year, but, if it's fair to assume that the O's bench has improved somewhat thanks to Pearce and Young, is it nonetheless fair to assume that the bench overall, thanks to guys like Flaherty, Lough, and Hundley, remains among the worst in baseball from an offensive standpoint?

[tntoriole]

The question to me is really not whether Flaherty fits (maybe) in some construct of a utility player for his defense only. His bat is not good enough, in my view, to be a major league player. When the season started, he was our regular starting second baseman, because the team chose not to try and upgrade during the winter at second base. Then when he completely imploded to start the year just as he did last year, then Schoop defaulted to become the "regular" second baseman. Neither of these are adequate options thus far this year on a team supposedly trying to win a division. The question now is whether you just let it ride, hope Schoop figures it out and performs better in the second half, hope Flaherty somehow gets a bit better coming off the bench..or do you go to the minors and bring up Weeks or Casilla for Flaherty and/or Schoop or go to the trade market. Flaherty cannot perform the role of left handed bat off the bench and neither can Lough. So, in reality, except on days when Davis gets a rest and Pearce plays first, we have no left handed bat off the bench options. Lough supposedly is a defensive option, except I haven't seen him used much even in that very limited capacity lately. Is he still even on the team? And this problem has been made even more severe by the loss of Wieters. Maybe we could have snuck with no left handed bats at all on the bench if Wieters were still available, but now, we have two Teagarden types as our regular catchers and the one catcher who actually can hit is in the minors. It is going to be hard to win the division with the black hole of 7,8,9 slots that currently exists.

[bpilktree]

I have no problem with Flaherty on the bench though I think I would give a chanceto see if one of the other guys at Noflk can come up and gt hot and send him down to get consistant at bats for a bit. The problem with everything is David Lough. People saying how can you pinch it Flaherty when he hasn't gotten mch time. Lough has not got a hit sine June 7th on this team so he surely is not a gy i want up and th last time I remember him up it a big sitution just like this he hit a grounder back t the pitcher for a double play. Lough is a gret defense player but right now is god awful hitting. A few close games this week Buck has actually left te left fielder i because he seems affraid that the other team will tie it up and then Lough has to hit. He basically is only putting him in the 9th which I don't think is a spot we need him anyway. Britton doesn't give up flyballs so who cares if you have a defensive outfielder anyway. Cruz or Pearce can watch teams hit the ball on the ground in the 9th just as well as Lough.

I move Lough, Hundley, and Flaherty down and bring up Reimold, Clevenger and Weeks. Schoop can be the back up SS and Weeks the back up CF with Clevenger the LH bat of thee bench.

[Il BuonO]

I mentioned the photo as well. Especially with the caption. What I am really asking is that we attack the argument, not the poster.

My early morning humor is like my coffee, a little on the weak side.

[Il BuonO]

This would be wrong. He has almost 800 innings at second base. Both DRS and UZR show him as above average to date.

I find that very very hard to believe.

Look it up if you don't believe me. Not that hard.

This made me laugh. And then, to top things off the other guy goes and looks it up.

Lol....

[TouchemAll]

Dude is totally useless. Last year it was a struggle just to get above 200 and this year he's hitting 220? I'm being totally serious, we have to have someone in our farm system that can do a little better than that. Can't we at least make some sort of a

trade?

PLEASE, GET THIS BUM OFF THE TEAM.

His versatility with the glove in the infield keeps him with the club we'll need him for sure when Manny serves that suspension.

No argument from me his bat is awful.

[Tx Oriole]

The only thing totally worthless are the posts saying Flaherty is totally worthless. You are just pissed because he hit into a DP to end the game tonight. And you've obviously already forgotten that just 3 weeks ago, Flaherty's 3-run HR beat the Red Sox. The reality is, Flaherty is the consummate utility player, capable of playing every infield position, and the corner OF positions in an emergency. Plus, he has some power - 10 HR in only 246 AB's last year, including a walk-off 3-run HR against the Blue Jays. He is capable of getting key hits, but like most utility players, he won't hit for average.

And, the Orioles have no one anywhere near as versatile at Norfolk.

That's about the size of it. Manny will be suspended at some point. Ryan will play

3rd. It's kind of sad. Nothing is said when the O's win. But when they lose its

Katy bar the door. All this silliness comes out.

[Dr. Unk]

I wouldn't say totally useless, but I don't understand Buck's fascination with him.

[Guest rochester]

All I know is that when Flaherty came up I was hoping for only one out to give Nick a shot... I really understand (and agree) with the defense is important philosophy when putting the roster together but someone like Lough has not brought anything (and I thought he would). I know there have been some plays Cruz, et al. did not get to that he may have but we aren't talking Mark Belanger-defense here with Lough. Plus, his speed has not been used - he doesn't get on base and when he pinch runs it is usually in a position when attempting to steal may not be the best idea (potential tying or winning run, etc.)

[Old#5fan]

This would be wrong. He has almost 800 innings at second base. Both DRS and UZR show him as above average to date.

So what, as poorly as he hits he would need to field like Roberto Alomar to justify his existence on a major league playoff contending team. Schoop hasn't shown much more except the ability to pop a home run now and then in a big spot, but give me him anyday as at least he is young and has some potential at second base. Flaherty would have never made any Orioles playoff team in the pre-Buck era. I guarantee it.

[Old#5fan]

I wouldn't say totally useless, but I don't understand Buck's fascination with him.

Maybe he mow's Buck's lawn or something. I used to joke that Mark Williamson did that for Johnny Oates as he was the worst O's reliever I ever saw in allowing all inherited runners and then getting the side out in order!