Thirty years on...

[TinCup]

The subsequent owners failed to fix it, but they didn't break it, it was already broken.

Can something that is broken, be broken even further through continued negligence or mishandling??????

[DrungoHazewood]

Would you say that there was an uptick in youth potential in the 88-90 timeframe? It's arguable, but there is some merit there. Assuming that it is, where did we go wrong again? Glenn Davis?

-m

Some uptick, sure. Finley, Milacki, Harnisch, McDonald, Olson, Worthington, Billy Ripken, Ballard... that's a pretty good core to come up with in a couple years. But Worthington and Ripken were pretty close to defense-only players, and Ballard and Milacki were soft-tossers who benefited from having three centerfielders behind them most nights. The real core was Finley, who developed beyond anyone's wildest expectations, McDonald who was a #1 overal pick, Harnisch and Olson. I'm not sure that's a great track record. Better than the rest of the 80-2000-whatever time frame, but probably what needs to happen most years to really sustain a winning team.

Schilling, Anderson, Devereaux, Bautista, Milligan, Tettleton all came from elsewhere.

And yes, then they traded a lot of that youth for Glenn Davis without the farm picking up enough slack.

[RShack]

OK...I want to push this thread back towards its original intent: to get a fix on when the Orioles farm system (as opposed to the ML club) went into the tailspin MacPhail is currently trying to pull it out of.

Among the owners, there's plenty of blame to go around...

That's a fact, Jack.

Also, I'd like to take this thing in another direction: say we agree on the (approximately) 30-year period in the developmental wilderness. How long (starting from last July) does it take the Orioles to get out? How long before the system is producing a position player a year? And how many pitchers a year should it be producing?

IMO, the clock started ticking, not this past July, but from when Flanny took over the top job from Beattie. I think Flanny understood perfectly well that he had to start growing players. I think the low-end of the farm-system talent shows an uptick because of the direction Flanny set, once he wasn't #2 to Beattie. My hunch is that Flanny either didn't know how, or else didn't have the leeway, to fix the actual MiL system that the young talent is going into, but he did realize that getting good young talent is one key. My hunch is that, before it's all done, fair-minded people will be appreciating Flanny more than they do now. However, I think it will be AM, not Flanny, who will deserve credit for fixing the system and not just the supply of raw-materials.

As for how long, good question. Beats me, I'm just guessing. I think AM will do it faster than his daddy, simply because he's got the Oriole Way blueprint to go by, whereas his daddy had to invent it. IMO, last year we had a 6-Player Team. I'm hoping we can have an 8-Player Team this year, a 10-Player Team by 2009, and a 12-Player Team by 2010. That will let us have a decent shot at the WC. To have a good shot at the WS takes a 13-14 Player Team, and that'll prolly take a year or two longer than 2010 unless we get lucky and/or unless AM is a genius.

[SilentJames]

Tony, if we're gonna all be repeating ourselves from the other thread, I will too...

No, I am not saying that the fact that EBW destroyed THE best franchise in baseball means that we should become Socialists. But neither do I think that a guy's ability to destroy a great organization and still make a profit makes him a good guy. Nor am I saying Jacobs and PA were not bad owners. They were. Why do you keep bringing them up to defend EBW? Since EBW was dead by the time the other guys got the team, I don't understand what they have to do with how EBW ruined the franchise.

If you just look at what he did, you're fighting a losing battle. Look at this way: If you're counting on the organization to develop players and maintain a winning culture, it's not an instant thing. Unless you're pulling a Steinbrenner and buying stars who you didn't grow, it takes a while. Can we agree about that? So, how long should we say it takes for the dried-up pipeline to cause problems? The O's signed Cal in '78, and his big ROY year was '82. So, that's a diff of 4 years. I guess we could argue for a little more or a little less, but using Cal seems like a very Oriole thing to do, so let's just say it takes 4 years, OK?

Since EBW was responsible for the 80-88 seasons, that means the effects of the system will be visible on the ML club from 84-92 (unless we had a Steinbrenner in there, which we didn't.) I just looked up the O's winning percentage for those years. They work out to an average winning percentage of .468. For 162 games, that's 76 wins. If we back up and look at the 8 years previous to that, it was .580, which translates to 94 wins. That means that during the years of "the EBW effect", the O's went from *averaging* 94 wins per year, all the way down to 76 wins per year. Now, I know you like to think that Jacobs and PA are way worse than EBW, but they're not. If you take all the O's seasons after the EBW effect, then the winning percentage is .476, which is 77 wins over a 162 game season.

So, to review:

• EBW was in charge for about 8 years.
• In the 8 years prior to EBW's destruction of the Orioles organization trickling up to the ML club, the O's had an average winning pct of .580, or 94 wins per year.
• During the years that EBW's effects show up, the franchise sunk to an average winning pct. of .468, or 76 wins.
• In all the years after that time period combined, the franchise had an average winning pct. of .476, or 77 wins.

Face it, Tony, EBW is the guy who screwed the pooch and destroyed the franchise. The 2 guys since have just continued the level of crapitude that EBW established.

Jacobs and PA have zilch to do with EBW. He's they guy who put the O's in the toilet.

What is your allegiance to EBW? I don't get it. Was he your cousin or something?

Just one more thought: You keep wanting to give EBW credit for working out a deal with Schaeffer to put the new stadium in the City. Um, how hard do you think it was to convince Willie Don Schaeffer to put it in the City? Don't you think that was approximately as hard as convincing the Pope that it's good to be Catholic?

God this is such a good post. Willie Don had to put the team in the city. EBW was a DC boy and wanted to move the team out of the city. Not to DC, but between DC and Baltimore.

GO LINTHICUM ORIOLES!

[BaltimoreTerp]

God this is such a good post. Willie Don had to put the team in the city. EBW was a DC boy and wanted to move the team out of the city. Not to DC, but between DC and Baltimore.

GO LINTHICUM ORIOLES!

The real "Mid-Atlantics", to bring in stuff from another thread.

[TonySoprano]

Tony, if we're gonna all be repeating ourselves from the other thread, I will too...

Go back to your opening post here. It was redundant to what you had already written.

So to review (and be redundant myself):

*Hank Peters, General Manager 1975-1987

*Earl Weaver, Cal Sr, Frank Robinson, all managers

* Notables in the farm system pipeline six years prior to EBW -Ripken, Jr, Bod****er, Davis. Period.

Face it, if the "pooch was screwed" the DNA tests show it was before Williams' time. Specifically, I'd have Hank Peters submitted for DNA testing.

Hoffberger stayed out of the way of his general manager, to which former GM Frank Cashen said, "Hank was spoiled. I mean Jerry was about the best owner there was as far as staying out of the way." However, it wasn't until after the 1983 season that EBW began to assert himself as owner.

In Hank Peters own words:

"And in this one meeting Ed says to me, "I can't let you run things any longer the way we've been doing. I've got to have the final word."

"I told Ed, "we're getting old. You're going to have to go through a transitional period where maybe we don't win. We have to rebuild. And he said, "bull." Now you have to appreciate this man was ill with cancer and he knows more about his health than I do. And I guess his years are numbered he didn't want to go through a transitional period."

Reference - John Eisenberg, " From 33rd Street to Camden Yards"

Note to Silent James - In the end, the team stayed in Baltimore thanks to Edward Bennett Williams and his vision that a new ballpark was needed. Would Schaeffer have built one on his own? I really doubt it.

Williams was the one that marketed the team to the Washington area, to the press, to the politicans, and to the business big wigs. For the first time in *THE* best franchise history, under his watch, attendance at Memorial Stadium exceeded 2 million. But don't take my word for it, this is what former GM Frank Cashen has to say:

"I say this unequivocally: the guy who turned the attendance around was Ed Bennett Williams. When the Senators left, sports fans in Washington really disliked Baltimore. Ed Williams made it socially acceptable to come to Baltimore to see a ball game. And how he did it - he probably did it unwittingly - he started bringing over Supreme Court justices and judges and congressmen, and that got publicity, and then the people started coming. He's the guy that changed the whole thing around as far as drawing people. I give him all the credit for that."

Reference - John Eisenberg, " From 33rd Street to Camden Yards"

EBW's record:

*Camden Yards

* Increased attendance at Memorial Stadium

*Reliance (in the case of Peters, over-reliance) on key players in the Orioles Way - Weaver, Ripken, Sr. Robinson, Peters.

[NewMarketSean]

The subsequent owners failed to fix it, but they didn't break it, it was already broken.

I agree, but it still seems like you are trying to steer blame away from Angelos.

The O's were in-deed broken when Angelos took the team over, but he had more resources (new stadium, better TV deals, improved attendance) to improve the organization. He didn't. Plus, he was a Baltimore guy who loved the city, the team, and the fans.

It all looked good from the start.

It's like bringing in Donald Trump to fix an ailing company. And when he fails to do it, it looks even worse than before. IMO, what happened with the O's before Angelos became owner really doesn't matter. Within 5 years he should have improved things. He did, kind of.

But then it went bad.

So Angelos is to blame more than EBW, IMO for those reasons.

[TinCup]

Can something that is broken, be broken even further through continued negligence or mishandling??????

Sometimes one must answer their own question, and I say yes, something broken can be rendered even worse off, i.e., broken even more.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Go back to your opening post here. It was redundant to what you had already written.

So to review (and be redundant myself):

*Hank Peters, General Manager 1975-1987

*Earl Weaver, Cal Sr, Frank Robinson, all managers

* Notables in the farm system pipeline six years prior to EBW -Ripken, Jr, Bod****er, Davis. Period.

Face it, if the "pooch was screwed" the DNA tests show it was before Williams' time. Specifically, I'd have Hank Peters submitted for DNA testing.

Hoffberger stayed out of the way of his general manager, to which former GM Frank Cashen said, "Hank was spoiled. I mean Jerry was about the best owner there was as far as staying out of the way." However, it wasn't until after the 1983 season that EBW began to assert himself as owner.

In Hank Peters own words:

Reference - John Eisenberg, " From 33rd Street to Camden Yards"

Note to Silent James - In the end, the team stayed in Baltimore thanks to Edward Bennett Williams and his vision that a new ballpark was needed. Would Schaeffer have built one on his own? I really doubt it.

Williams was the one that marketed the team to the Washington area, to the press, to the politicans, and to the business big wigs. For the first time in *THE* best franchise history, under his watch, attendance at Memorial Stadium exceeded 2 million. But don't take my word for it, this is what former GM Frank Cashen has to say:

Reference - John Eisenberg, " From 33rd Street to Camden Yards"

EBW's record:

*Camden Yards

* Increased attendance at Memorial Stadium

*Reliance (in the case of Peters, over-reliance) on key players in the Orioles Way - Weaver, Ripken, Sr. Robinson, Peters.

Williams held the city hostage after the Colts left, mostly because Schaffer had his pride wounded and didn't want it further damaged. He used the support from DC as a weapon to suggest that the team should move closer to the District as a true regional team (Angelos has nothing on him in that regard).

[BaltimoreTerp]

Sometimes one must answer their own question, and I say yes, something broken can be rendered even worse off, i.e., broken even more.

I'd argue more that it was broken and then those who followed either failed to care enough (Jacobs) or didn't figure out the right way to fix it (Angelos), at least until recent years.

[BaltimoreTerp]

I agree, but it still seems like you are trying to steer blame away from Angelos.

The O's were in-deed broken when Angelos took the team over, but he had more resources (new stadium, better TV deals, improved attendance) to improve the organization. He didn't. Plus, he was a Baltimore guy who loved the city, the team, and the fans.

It all looked good from the start.

It's like bringing in Donald Trump to fix an ailing company. And when he fails to do it, it looks even worse than before. IMO, what happened with the O's before Angelos became owner really doesn't matter. Within 5 years he should have improved things. He did, kind of.

But then it went bad.

So Angelos is to blame more than EBW, IMO for those reasons.

The question is, did he break the team further, or just fail to succeed in fixing it? They are two seperate outcomes.

If something is wrong with my car and I try to fix it (knowing nothing about them), I can try a hundred different ways and fail to fix the problem without having it broken further. That doesn't mean I am at fault for the problem, just that I don't know enough to fix it.

The problem with Angelos comes with knowing what to do when there is a problem. With a car, you hire a qualified mechanic. With a baseball franchise you hire someone you trust to run it for you. It appears that is what is happening now with MacPhail.

[NewMarketSean]

The question is, did he break the team further, or just fail to succeed in fixing it? They are two seperate outcomes.

If something is wrong with my car and I try to fix it (knowing nothing about them), I can try a hundred different ways and fail to fix the problem without having it broken further. That doesn't mean I am at fault for the problem, just that I don't know enough to fix it.

The problem with Angelos comes with knowing what to do when there is a problem. With a car, you hire a qualified mechanic. With a baseball franchise you hire someone you trust to run it for you. It appears that is what is happening now with MacPhail.

It's open for interpretation. But if you know nothing about cars, and you are overriding the people you hire to fix your car, then you are making the problem even worse, regardless of what condition the car was in.

Basically, Angelos took the team when it was at it's highest value, with plenty of resources and came just short of destroying it. Pretty much any one inside of the Beltway could have done a better job with what he had at his disposal and the people he had around him.

There is a tragic feel to what Angelos has done. He was supposed to be the savior.

[RShack]

Hoffberger stayed out of the way of his general manager, to which former GM Frank Cashen said, "Hank was spoiled. I mean Jerry was about the best owner there was as far as staying out of the way."

Exactly.

The only good thing on Hank Peter's entire resume is the years when the farm system was still showing the effects of Jerry Hoffberger's ownership.

After Hoffberger, it took some time for the subsequent carnage to ruin the big-league club.

Except for the Hoffberger years, and the guys who trickled up from them (like Cal), Hank Peters' resume is terrible.

What's your point? For some reason, you keep insisting that EBW is not responsible for what happened on his watch.

Why? He was the owner, so he's the guy responsible.

You can't have one rule for PA and a different rule for everybody else just because you wanna make excuses for EBW. If you wanna blame PA for what he did (which is fine, he deserves it), then you can't let EBW off the hook for what he did. And what he did was take a team that averaged 94 W's per season and turned it in to one that averaged 76 W's per season.

In Hank Peters own words:

"And in this one meeting Ed says to me, "I can't let you run things any longer the way we've been doing. I've got to have the final word."

"I told Ed, "we're getting old. You're going to have to go through a transitional period where maybe we don't win. We have to rebuild. And he said, "bull." Now you have to appreciate this man was ill with cancer and he knows more about his health than I do. And I guess his years are numbered he didn't want to go through a transitional period."

Reference - John Eisenberg, " From 33rd Street to Camden Yards"

Great. So the Big Excuse for destroying the best franchise in baseball is that EBW had cancer.

Who cares? Lots of people get sick and die. My Mom got cancer and died. She didn't destroy anything. She arranged things so Dad would be as-OK-as-possible, and there was no mess to clean up after her. She inspired us by how she did it. She knew she was dying, so she made things *better*, not worse.

Being sick doesn't justify destroying the best franchise in baseball. That was just one terrible owner being as selfish as he could possibly be. He didn't give two hoots about the future of the franchise. He just wanted to meddle until he died. He set the precedent for meddling by Oriole owners. Before him, Oriole owners didn't meddle and screw things up.

EBW didn't have to build a single thing about the farm system. It was *already built*. The Baltimore Orioles organization was the one that everybody else was trying to copy. The only thing EBW had to do was not screw it up. He screwed it up. If you just look at the team's record, and adjust for how long it takes for ignoring the farm system to screw up the big-league club, the record is clear as day: EBW is the guy who *ruined* the Baltimore Orioles.

[BaltimoreTerp]

It's open for interpretation. But if you know nothing about cars, and you are overriding the people you hire to fix your car, then you are making the problem even worse, regardless of what condition the car was in.

Basically, Angelos took the team when it was at it's highest value, with plenty of resources and came just short of destroying it. Pretty much any one inside of the Beltway could have done a better job with what he had at his disposal and the people he had around him.

There is a tragic feel to what Angelos has done. He was supposed to be the savior.

I'm surprised no writer has figured that out and turned it into one hell of a newspaper or magazine story.

Angelos would be a great tragic hero (saving the source of civic pride, shows a major tragic flaw that manifests itself at the height of success, he's even Greek!), and there is a clearly defined introduction, rising action, high point, and fall.

Man, I've taken too many English classes

[mefogus]

Some uptick, sure. Finley, Milacki, Harnisch, McDonald, Olson, Worthington, Billy Ripken, Ballard... that's a pretty good core to come up with in a couple years.

...

Schilling, Anderson, Devereaux, Bautista, Milligan, Tettleton all came from elsewhere.

I do not disagree that the 88-90 time frame, while solid relative to the 25+ years surrounding it, was still quite weak. However, given that the system had all of the above players, it is almost incomprehensible that nothing could be built on it. Even looking ahead to the two playoff years, the majority of these players were long gone and had been used as leverage to create anything of value. So really, given the system at the beginning of the 1990 season, it is a tremendous failure of the team to have turned that into nothing. Looking back at it in this light really makes that whole 1989 season into more of a fluke than I could have ever imagined.

-m