Sun-Times says O's want Cedeno, Gallagher, and 2 more prospects

[davearm]

How do you differentiate no plate discipline from sub-par contact rate from his stats?

How big a problem do you have with a 21 year-old guy that hit 16 dingers in less than 500 AB's?

A little friendly advice -- don't waste your time defending Colvin.

The guy had a pretty decent year in '07, climbing the ladder quickly and putting up some nice power numbers for the hitting environments he was in, but still, the K and BB numbers speak for themselves. There's no escaping the fact that they're major red flags.

I'm as hopeful as the next guy that the conventional wisdom about his inability to control the strikezone dooming him will prove to be spectacularly wrong, but for the moment anyway, that's where the smart money is.

Best just to sit back quietly and wait to see how things develop, IMO.

[Bloopandablast]

A little friendly advice -- don't waste your time defending Colvin.

The guy had a pretty decent year in '07, climbing the ladder quickly and putting up some nice power numbers for the hitting environments he was in, but still, the K and BB numbers speak for themselves. There's no escaping the fact that they're major red flags.

I'm as hopeful as the next guy that the conventional wisdom about his inability to control the strikezone dooming him will prove to be spectacularly wrong, but for the moment anyway, that's where the smart money is.

Best just to sit back quietly and wait to see how things develop, IMO.

JUst want someone to tell me the difference between no plate discipline from sub-par contact rate from his stats? I mean one says that he is not selective and the other says when he swings he misses. But I am not sure that there is a stat that truly carves out the difference between the two. The K to BB rate do speak for themselves, but it is piling on to call it two problems.

[Harry Carry]

Colvin will be a middle of the order guy that is a run producer.As long as he drives in runs who cares.You need the top of the order guys to be patient.By the way Colvin is a very good OF that can play CF also with a real good arm.As long as he hits 280 to 300 and drives in runs who cares look at Vlad he swings at everything.You have to give a young player time to develop plate discipline it does not happen over night.

[RShack]

OK, since this thread is not gonna die, I have an actual question for Cubs fans.

It's about applying my 15-Player Team theory to the issue of the Cubs and BRob. Here's how it works:

• Look at each guy in your starting line-up. With no DH, that's 8 players.
  
• Look at your best 3 starters.
  
• Look at your best 3 BP guys.
  
• Since you're in one of the 2 leagues on the planet with no DH, pick any other guy who you think is important.
  
• That's 15 guys. For each guy, ask yourself, "Am I happy with this guy for a WS winner?"
  
• There's no rules about what makes you happy. You don't have to prove anything. Just be your own judge: either you're happy with a guy, or you're not. (Don't go complaining about how you need guidance or rules about it, just decide.)
  
• Count up how many "Yes" answers you have. The total number is the kind of team you've got.

My theory is that a 15-Player Team will turn out to be a heavy WS favorite. It they lose, it will be a big upset. You don't find many 15-Player Teams. I don't know if we'll ever see one again. For me, most WS teams lately seem like 13-Player Teams. Obviously, a 14-Player Team would be great to have. Sometimes, a 12-Player Team can get to the WS, but it's a very iffy thing, it's an uphill battle and you gotta be lucky or have some tricks up your sleeve. The difference between a 12-Player Team and a 13-Player Team is big. Sometimes, you can get to the post-season with an 11-Player Team, but unless something incredible happens, you're not going to the WS with one.

So, when you do that with your Cubbies as they are now, what kind of team is it?

Is it an 11-Player Team, or a 12-Player Team, or a 13-Player Team, or what?

And does getting BRob change your answer?

[ejf1025]

OK, since this thread is not gonna die, I have an actual question for Cubs fans.

It's about applying my 15-Player Team theory to the issue of the Cubs and BRob. Here's how it works:

• Look at each guy in your starting line-up. With no DH, that's 8 players.
• Look at your best 3 starters.
• Look at your best 3 BP guys.
• Since you're in one of the 2 leagues on the planet with no DH, pick any other guy who you think is important.
• That's 15 guys. For each guy, ask yourself, "Am I happy with this guy for a WS winner?"
• There's no rules about what makes you happy. You don't have to prove anything. Just be your own judge: either you're happy with a guy, or you're not. (Don't go complaining about how you need guidance or rules about it, just decide.)
• Count up how many "Yes" answers you have. The total number is the kind of team you've got.

My theory is that a 15-Player Team will turn out to be a heavy WS favorite. It they lose, it will be a big upset. You don't find many 15-Player Teams. I don't know if we'll ever see one again. For me, most WS teams lately seem like 13-Player Teams. Obviously, a 14-Player Team would be great to have. Sometimes, a 12-Player Team can get to the WS, but it's a very iffy thing, it's an uphill battle and you gotta be lucky or have some tricks up your sleeve. The difference between a 12-Player Team and a 13-Player Team is big. Sometimes, you can get to the post-season with an 11-Player Team, but unless something incredible happens, you're not going to the WS with one.

So, when you do that with your Cubbies as they are now, what kind of team is it?

Is it an 11-Player Team, or a 12-Player Team, or a 13-Player Team, or what?

And does getting BRob change your answer?

Not sure you are really going out on a limb here and this theory is pretty ridiculously open-ended and vague...

Nevertheless...there are teams now with 15 WS-caliber player, and there will be again. It's not like "the old days" have a monopoly on building top-end contenders...

[Mike B]

Why not just Pie & Gallagher? You have to give up a little something to get a little something. Win-win. No one really wants Murton or Cedeno very much. You can't trade your trash or reserves or failed prospects and get a star. If you guys like Cedeno so much, keep him and play him at 2nd. If Murton is so good, start him in left and move Soriano to center.

You have to give up something to get something. Keep your 4 for 1 deals. 2 for 1 will work fine.

I do not really want Murton, but Veal Colvin and Gallagher with Murton would work for me. I like Pie and Colvin and have always felt one of those has to be in the trade.

[chicubsvatech]

OK, since this thread is not gonna die, I have an actual question for Cubs fans.

It's about applying my 15-Player Team theory to the issue of the Cubs and BRob. Here's how it works:

• Look at each guy in your starting line-up. With no DH, that's 8 players.
• Look at your best 3 starters.
• Look at your best 3 BP guys.
• Since you're in one of the 2 leagues on the planet with no DH, pick any other guy who you think is important.
• That's 15 guys. For each guy, ask yourself, "Am I happy with this guy for a WS winner?"
• There's no rules about what makes you happy. You don't have to prove anything. Just be your own judge: either you're happy with a guy, or you're not. (Don't go complaining about how you need guidance or rules about it, just decide.)
• Count up how many "Yes" answers you have. The total number is the kind of team you've got.

My theory is that a 15-Player Team will turn out to be a heavy WS favorite. It they lose, it will be a big upset. You don't find many 15-Player Teams. I don't know if we'll ever see one again. For me, most WS teams lately seem like 13-Player Teams. Obviously, a 14-Player Team would be great to have. Sometimes, a 12-Player Team can get to the WS, but it's a very iffy thing, it's an uphill battle and you gotta be lucky or have some tricks up your sleeve. The difference between a 12-Player Team and a 13-Player Team is big. Sometimes, you can get to the post-season with an 11-Player Team, but unless something incredible happens, you're not going to the WS with one.

So, when you do that with your Cubbies as they are now, what kind of team is it?

Is it an 11-Player Team, or a 12-Player Team, or a 13-Player Team, or what?

And does getting BRob change your answer?

Is your theory basically "if you have 15 players you are happy with, you are a world series favorite?"

If so, here are the players I am personally happy with:

1) Soriano

2) Ramirez

3) D-Lee

4) Soto

5) Zambrano

6) Lilly

7) Marmol

8) Wuertz

9) Rich Hill

10) Bob Howry

11) Fukudome

12) DeRosa

13) Pie (big ?)

So, I guess we have a 13 player team if Pie comes through. I don't think Roberts changes that, unless he can revert back to playing SS.

Don't get me wrong, he is a great player, but we have more pressing holes than 2B (i.e., shortstop).

[NoVaO]

JUst want someone to tell me the difference between no plate discipline from sub-par contact rate from his stats? I mean one says that he is not selective and the other says when he swings he misses. But I am not sure that there is a stat that truly carves out the difference between the two. The K to BB rate do speak for themselves, but it is piling on to call it two problems.

I wouldn't call it piling on..like with pitchers, two separate problems are missing bats and control, but you combine them you get command. With hitters, one problem is pitch recognition (or batting eye) and the other problem is the ability to make contact.

If you want to combine them we can call it plate discipline, which means I can see your point, but Colvin does have two separate problems...his batting eye and contact rate.

The overall point I make on Colvin is this: because of his poor plate discipline, he will be required to hit for a high batting average to put up an acceptable OBP. His BABIPs thus far in his career don't point to a guy that looks like he has the skill to make hard, consistent and the ability to hit for a high average (guys like Matt Kemp or Howie Kendrick come to mine).

The contact rate problems only make things worse because it puts a cap on his batting average. His contact rate isn't that bad, but for a guy who has to make a lot of contact in order to hit for a high average, it is much too high.

I could possibly look past his plate discipline problems if he made consistent contact because he would then be at least somewhat justifying his low BB% and would still possess the ability to hit for a high average, but I don't see that ability in Colvin.

[section18]

I've said it a couple of times before and I will say it again. Rich Hill and Carlos Marmol have to be the #1 and #2 key players in the Roberts/Payton deal along with Murton and probably Patterson. It might have to be a 3 for 2 deal but AM is big on 4 and 5 for one type deals. He will go for quality more than quantity I believe in this deal. Again!! We don't have to deal Roberts. He is playing great to start ST and the Cubs can do big things in 08 with him leading off. We are not giving him away. Period. Come on Cub fans. Just face reality. You aren't going to win without him. You might make the playoffs but you'll be out in the first round unless other changes are coming. Nice team but not a world series winner.

You have plenty of starters and can afford to let Hill go and you have other candidates for closer. You've got Zambrano, Lilly, Gallagher, Marquis, Lieber and Marshall if needed as starters. Payton and Murton are almost a wash from your standpoint since Murton is a part time player. Patterson is a throw in. AM should not make the Cub deal unless the above players are coming to Baltimore. If he caves in and accepts Gallagher instead of Hill then we should also nsist on Marshall being included.

I still prefer a deal with Cleveland. We could send Roberts and one or two others for Peralta, Miller, Barfield and others and flip Peralta to San Diego in a package for Khalil Greene. Believe me AM is looking at all kinds of possibilities and he is listening to his scouts. The games are important right now in ST even though there are a lot of pitchers throwing who won't make ML rosters. It's good to see these players close up before dealing for them.

I know it's going to be hard for AM to deal Roberts but he will be dealt soon or before the trade deadline this summer. This will be a tough decision for us. I think this deal will be scrutinized when completed more than the Tejada or Bedard deals have been. Be tough Andy don't give him away. I still say Hill and Marmol are the keys or no deal

[DeuceBaseman]

I've said it a couple of times before and I will say it again. Rich Hill and Carlos Marmol have to be the #1 and #2 key players in the Roberts/Payton deal along with Murton and probably Patterson. It might have to be a 3 for 2 deal but AM is big on 4 and 5 for one type deals. He will go for quality more than quantity I believe in this deal. Again!! We don't have to deal Roberts. He is playing great to start ST and the Cubs can do big things in 08 with him leading off. We are not giving him away. Period. Come on Cub fans. Just face reality. You aren't going to win without him. You might make the playoffs but you'll be out in the first round unless other changes are coming. Nice team but not a world series winner.

You have plenty of starters and can afford to let Hill go and you have other candidates for closer. You've got Zambrano, Lilly, Gallagher, Marquis, Lieber and Marshall if needed as starters. Payton and Murton are almost a wash from your standpoint since Murton is a part time player. Patterson is a throw in. AM should not make the Cub deal unless the above players are coming to Baltimore. If he caves in and accepts Gallagher instead of Hill then we should also nsist on Marshall being included.

I still prefer a deal with Cleveland. We could send Roberts and one or two others for Peralta, Miller, Barfield and others and flip Peralta to San Diego in a package for Khalil Greene. Believe me AM is looking at all kinds of possibilities and he is listening to his scouts. The games are important right now in ST even though there are a lot of pitchers throwing who won't make ML rosters. It's good to see these players close up before dealing for them.

I know it's going to be hard for AM to deal Roberts but he will be dealt soon or before the trade deadline this summer. This will be a tough decision for us. I think this deal will be scrutinized when completed more than the Tejada or Bedard deals have been. Be tough Andy don't give him away. I still say Hill and Marmol are the keys or no deal

LMAO this was great, thanks bud. Rich Hill or Carlos Marmol alone is worth more than Roberts. Both of them, and more??? You'd be lucky to get Murton and Patterson in a deal with Sean Gallagher for Roberts. So i like your deal of Rich Hill, Marmol, Murton and Patterson for Roberts/Payton, BUT you need to take out Hill and Marmol and sub in Gallagher. K? Deal. Look for a deal more like Gallagher, Cedeno, Veal, Murton for Roberts/Payton.

[RShack]

I've said it a couple of times before and I will say it again...

The mantra of posters on BRob-trade threads everywhere...

[clapdiddy]

LMAO this was great, thanks bud. Rich Hill or Carlos Marmol alone is worth more than Roberts. Both of them, and more??? You'd be lucky to get Murton and Patterson in a deal with Sean Gallagher for Roberts. So i like your deal of Rich Hill, Marmol, Murton and Patterson for Roberts/Payton, BUT you need to take out Hill and Marmol and sub in Gallagher. K? Deal. Look for a deal more like Gallagher, Cedeno, Veal, Murton for Roberts/Payton.

I definitely think we can make something happen with the Cubs. And I'd agree....there's no way we're getting anyone of the caliber of Hill back in a deal.

The deal you suggest is probably pretty fair for both sides, though I think I'd rather have Patterson than Cedeno.

[Owatcher]

LMAO this was great, thanks bud. Rich Hill or Carlos Marmol alone is worth more than Roberts. Both of them, and more??? You'd be lucky to get Murton and Patterson in a deal with Sean Gallagher for Roberts. So i like your deal of Rich Hill, Marmol, Murton and Patterson for Roberts/Payton, BUT you need to take out Hill and Marmol and sub in Gallagher. K? Deal. Look for a deal more like Gallagher, Cedeno, Veal, Murton for Roberts/Payton.

Look for the Cubs to be without Roberts. K?

[rammyfanny]

Look for the Cubs to be without Robert. K?

So you think he's worth Hill and Marmol? And more?

[Owatcher]

Colvin will be a middle of the order guy that is a run producer.As long as he drives in runs who cares.You need the top of the order guys to be patient.By the way Colvin is a very good OF that can play CF also with a real good arm.As long as he hits 280 to 300 and drives in runs who cares look at Vlad he swings at everything.You have to give a young player time to develop plate discipline it does not happen over night.

Great. The Cubs should hold onto him and develop him themselves. Gallagher + Pie = Roberts