Sun-Times says O's want Cedeno, Gallagher, and 2 more prospects

[owl]

I find it funny that Ken Kravec went to our game again today and left when Roberts wasn't in the lineup.

That is really funny.

Why is it funny? Kravec scouts what seems like every Orioles game.

[AgentOrange]

Why is it funny? Kravec scouts what seems like every Orioles game.

Because he left as soon as he saw Roberts wasn't there.

That's all. Maybe you were'nt in the conversations before, but whatever.

[Number5]

And they weren't any more true then than they are now. Remember when people would attack posters for saying then that it won't happen?

Hill is worth more than Roberts. But "value" has a lot more to do with the type of player... I believe you've stated yourself that 2B have less value than other positions. #2-3 lefty starting strikeout pitchers on the other hand have a sometimes inflated value. You say the Cubs wouldn't trade him but consider what team WOULD trade Rich Hill for Brian Roberts and then perhaps you'll see that he's more highly valued.

That career year was his first full year! Roberts was what, .270/.340/.370 in his first full season? Please, this is simply a statement of facts.

Something clicked for Hill in 2005 and he found control; since, he's been very good and highly sought. These are his MiL numbers since A ball in 2004:

2005A	1-0, 1.13 ERA, 0.63 WHIP	1 GS, 8 IP, 5 H, 12 SO, 0 BBAA	4-3, 3.28 ERA, 1.09 WHIP	10 GS, 57.2 IP, 42 H, 90 SO, 21 BB (14.1 K9 / 3.3 BB9)AAA	6-1, 3.60 ERA, 1.03 WHIP	10 GS, 65.0 IP, 53 H, 92 SO, 14 BB (12.7 K9 / 1.9 BB9)2006AAA	7-1, 1.80 ERA, 0.83 WHIP	15 GS, 100 IP, 62 H, 135 SO, 21 BB (12.2 K9 / 1.9 BB9)

Hill pitched 100 ML innings in 2006--mostly all August and September--after those 15 starts at AAA and looked very good in the last half of those starts. Then, his sophomore year, first full season, he has this career year you mention. Yeah... so now that we have facts where was the deception of his 2007 season?

The other poster I responded to was talking about rumored offers as being some type of definite and that Hill would never be discussed. I was pointing out the fact that the first rumor was Hill and Pie. Please read nothing more into it than that. I was responding to a Cub fan's post.

Your "Hill is worth more than Roberts" comment is the type of comment I was responding to initially. I understand that the opinion among some Cub fans is that your statement is true, but I would doubt very seriously that it would be shared by many outside of Chicago. However, your statement is your opinion, only. Please don't try to claim that it is a fact.

I stated accurately what Hill's numbers have been. I have said nothing bad about the man. His numbers are his numbers. Your statement that he is a #2-3 starter is again your opinion only. He does happen to be the #3 on the Cubs staff. He does also happen to be 17-17 with a career 4.387 ERA.

As to your question about what team would make such a trade, a team with better SP options than the Cubs, without a viable 2B option would trade Hill and Marmol for Roberts in a heartbeat, IMO. The Cubs are simply not in a position to do so.

I'm not sure what you are arguing with me for. If I have inaccurately stated Hill's record, by all means correct me. Otherwise, don't fault me with responding to wild claims that Hill is worth more than Roberts. Remember, I was responding here, and I have said nothing derogatory about any Cub player, unless the facts are somehow considered derogatory.

[rammyfanny]

Anger is not necessary. I have not suggested a Hill & Marmol for Roberts trade. I have stated very clearly that it will never happen, IMO. I am, however, saying that there is nothing ridiculous about such a trade.

I have made no denigrating comment whatsoever about Hill or Marmol. Hill's lifetime record is 17-17, with a 4.387 ERA. This is a fact and is indisputable. Last year was his best year, with an 11-8 record. Again, a fact. You are arguing against the facts because you apparently believe that he will be better in the future. That is fine, and I don't fault you for that, but don't yell at me for stating the facts as they are.

Your insinuation that Roberts is an all-star only because every team has to have one was totally uncalled-for.

You're using wins to judge a pitchers worth.

I mean, seriously...

And of all people, Rich Hill. The man who had the 2nd worst run support in the ENTIRE MLB last year.

And were you really using wins to judge a pitchers worth?

[owl]

Your "Hill is worth more than Roberts" comment is the type of comment ... I would doubt very seriously that it would be shared by many outside of Chicago. However, your statement is your opinion, only. Please don't try to claim that it is a fact.

I stated accurately what Hill's numbers have been. I have said nothing bad about the man. His numbers are his numbers. Your statement that he is a #2-3 starter is again your opinion only.

As to your question about what team would make such a trade, a team with better SP options than the Cubs, without a viable 2B option would trade Hill and Marmol for Roberts in a heartbeat, IMO.

Okay, I guess we'll agree that this is your opinion. Please don't try to claim that as fact. (It's even wrong.) But it's your opinion. I only stated facts - and his numbers are his numbers. Your opinion of his win-loss record in his first full season overlooking his career peripherals, his run support, his market value, etc. is a bit crazy but if it's your opinion, it's your opinion. I guess that's how we'll do things.

And if Roberts is worth more than Hill you should be able to give me an example. The fact that you could only give me a hypothetical for a situation which does not exist to presume Roberts would then have more value should be very telling itself. We're not talking about your opinion or my opinion of the player - we're talking about market value.

[Number5]

You're using wins to judge a pitchers worth.

I mean, seriously...

And of all people, Rich Hill. The man who had the 2nd worst run support in the ENTIRE MLB last year.

And were you really using wins to judge a pitchers worth?

I can see why so many OH members have given up having reasonable conversations with Cub fans. I responded to an unsupported statement that Hill is worth more than Roberts. I stated facts. I never, not once, suggested a Hill & Marmol for Roberts trade would happen, or even be considered. I have now stated, in no uncertain terms, four times that it would not IMO. I get 4 or 5 Cub fans yelling at me and claiming that I've said things that I haven't said. If quoting the actual numbers is somehow considered an insult in Chicago, that is your problem. Don't yell at me about it.

I was responding to a statement that Hill is worth more than Roberts. My opinion is that he is not, and by a very wide margin. I have said absolutely nothing derogatory about Hill and have stated his record accurately. His numbers are his numbers and, IMO, are clear evidence of his value relative to Roberts. To you, perhaps those numbers show him to be of greater value than Roberts, and you are entitled to your opinions.

Originally posted by Owl:

"Okay, I guess we'll agree that this is your opinion. Please don't try to claim that as fact. (It's even wrong.) But it's your opinion. I only stated facts - and his numbers are his numbers. Your opinion of his win-loss record in his first full season overlooking his career peripherals, his run support, his market value, etc. is a bit crazy but if it's your opinion, it's your opinion. I guess that's how we'll do things.

And if Roberts is worth more than Hill you should be able to give me an example. The fact that you could only give me a hypothetical for a situation which does not exist to presume Roberts would then have more value should be very telling itself. We're not talking about your opinion or my opinion of the player - we're talking about market value."

Hill's won-loss record and ERA are not my opinion; they are facts. When I said IMO, that clearly meant that I was stating my opinion and, therefore, I did not "try to claim that as a fact." And what does your second paragraph mean? No, I have no "hypothetical for a situation," whatever that means. Instead, I chose to state the facts of Hill's record. I'm sorry if the facts don't support your claims. I can't help you with that.

I give up. Put Hill and his 4.387 ERA (3.923 last year) in the Hall of Fame now and leave me alone.

[Ballgame64]

I can see why so many OH members have given up having reasonable conversations with Cub fans. I responded to an unsupported statement that Hill is worth more than Roberts. I stated facts.

I was responding to a statement that Hill is worth more than Roberts. My opinion is that he is not, and by a very wide margin. I have said absolutely nothing derogatory about Hill and have stated his record accurately.

I give up. Put Hill and his 4.387 ERA (3.923 last year) in the Hall of Fame now and leave me alone.

Point 1 - you have to admit there are many OH posters who are unreasonable in their opinion of what Roberts is worth.

Point 2 - I am not sure if you can really compare the value of any pitcher to that of a position player. I'll just use this as my barometer - at the trade deadline, how many teams trade for pitching and how many trade for a 2nd baseman.

Point 3 - Your comment about Hill and the HOF is a great example of the pot calling the kettle black. Take a look at some of the comments about Roberts in all of the different threads. "Face of the franchise - great in the community - mentor to the young players - cures cancer - walks on water..."

[WebLink21]

I can see why so many OH members have given up having reasonable conversations with Cub fans. I responded to an unsupported statement that Hill is worth more than Roberts. I stated facts. I never, not once, suggested a Hill & Marmol for Roberts trade would happen, or even be considered. I have now stated, in no uncertain terms, four times that it would not IMO. I get 4 or 5 Cub fans yelling at me and claiming that I've said things that I haven't said. If quoting the actual numbers is somehow considered an insult in Chicago, that is your problem. Don't yell at me about it.

I was responding to a statement that Hill is worth more than Roberts. My opinion is that he is not, and by a very wide margin. I have said absolutely nothing derogatory about Hill and have stated his record accurately. His numbers are his numbers and, IMO, are clear evidence of his value relative to Roberts. To you, perhaps those numbers show him to be of greater value than Roberts, and you are entitled to your opinions.

Originally posted by Owl:

"Okay, I guess we'll agree that this is your opinion. Please don't try to claim that as fact. (It's even wrong.) But it's your opinion. I only stated facts - and his numbers are his numbers. Your opinion of his win-loss record in his first full season overlooking his career peripherals, his run support, his market value, etc. is a bit crazy but if it's your opinion, it's your opinion. I guess that's how we'll do things.

And if Roberts is worth more than Hill you should be able to give me an example. The fact that you could only give me a hypothetical for a situation which does not exist to presume Roberts would then have more value should be very telling itself. We're not talking about your opinion or my opinion of the player - we're talking about market value."

Hill's won-loss record and ERA are not my opinion; they are facts. When I said IMO, that clearly meant that I was stating my opinion and, therefore, I did not "try to claim that as a fact." And what does your second paragraph mean? No, I have no "hypothetical for a situation," whatever that means. Instead, I chose to state the facts of Hill's record. I'm sorry if the facts don't support your claims. I can't help you with that.

I give up. Put Hill and his 4.387 ERA (3.923 last year) in the Hall of Fame now and leave me alone.

Don't let them get to you. The trade will hopefully go down/go away soon and I think it will change around here.

[chicubsvatech]

Point 1 - you have to admit there are many OH posters who are unreasonable in their opinion of what Roberts is worth.

Point 2 - I am not sure if you can really compare the value of any pitcher to that of a position player. I'll just use this as my barometer - at the trade deadline, how many teams trade for pitching and how many trade for a 2nd baseman.

Point 3 - Your comment about Hill and the HOF is a great example of the pot calling the kettle black. Take a look at some of the comments about Roberts in all of the different threads. "Face of the franchise - great in the community - mentor to the young players - cures cancer - walks on water..."

I know it's our nature as sports fans to argue, especially on behalf of our team. And I too am quite surprised at the Pie/Marmol/Hill/Gallagher/Soriano/Wrigley Field for Roberts trade proposals that I've been reading. That said, this is an Orioles message board. Out of respect for the Orioles fans, I ask my fellow Cubs fans to ease up a bit. I don't see Orioles fans coming on to our boards and calling us morons.

[Fairfax Bird]

I know it's our nature as sports fans to argue, especially on behalf of our team. And I too am quite surprised at the Pie/Marmol/Hill/Gallagher/Soriano/Wrigley Field for Roberts trade proposals that I've been reading. That said, this is an Orioles message board. Out of respect for the Orioles fans, I ask my fellow Cubs fans to ease up a bit. I don't see Orioles fans coming on to our boards and calling us morons.

Yeah, that is the deal most of us proposed. Except Soriano, you can keep him since his contract is going to bite you in the butt.

As for me, I think I am one of the more sane on both sides that thinks Gallagher, Cedeno, Fontenot and Veal is enough.

[Ballgame64]

I know it's our nature as sports fans to argue, especially on behalf of our team. And I too am quite surprised at the Pie/Marmol/Hill/Gallagher/Soriano/Wrigley Field for Roberts trade proposals that I've been reading. That said, this is an Orioles message board. Out of respect for the Orioles fans, I ask my fellow Cubs fans to ease up a bit. I don't see Orioles fans coming on to our boards and calling us morons.

I never called anyone a moron and resent you using my post as a way to make yourself look like some martyr. I was making points that fans for both teams can be unreasonable. Number 5 does a very good job of defending his posts and will do so again if necessary. You can tell by these posts a lot of fans on both sides are a little frustrated.

[owl]

And what does your second paragraph mean? No, I have no "hypothetical for a situation," whatever that means. Instead, I chose to state the facts of Hill's record. I'm sorry if the facts don't support your claims. I can't help you with that.

I give up. Put Hill and his 4.387 ERA (3.923 last year) in the Hall of Fame now and leave me alone.

I asked you what team would trade Hill for Roberts and you said "Oh, if some team had much better starters than the Cubs and had no viable second basemen on the roster, they would do it in a heartbeat." I suppose that team would have to be "desperate to win this year" as well, right? Well that doesn't sound like a very realistic outlook on his value. That's your hypothetical and it doesn't exist. If NO team would trade Hill for Roberts, how much of a stretch is it to say that Roberts is valued more on the market? I post a broader perspective on why he's valued so highly, including his very relevent minor league numbers, and you fall back on saying "Are his 2007 numbers a lie? His first full year in the majors was a career year. That's fact." No it's not a lie, there's just much more to it. If you think GMs look at his 2007 win-loss record and nothing else, then that's your mistake. But I've seen you discuss other players and I know you're definitely more objective in other cases. Look at his minor league numbers I posted again. Then look at the gamelogs for his 2006 starts and look at the improvements he made. Then consider 2007, his "career year," was his first full year in the majors. I don't know why you're being so absurd with this - you're either unfairly belittling him or pretending anyone is putting him in the Hall and nothing between. If anyone is being unreasonable...

[Number5]

I asked you what team would trade Hill for Roberts and you said "Oh, if some team had much better starters than the Cubs and had no viable second basemen on the roster, they would do it in a heartbeat." I suppose that team would have to be "desperate to win this year" as well, right? Well that doesn't sound like a very realistic outlook on his value. That's your hypothetical and it doesn't exist. If NO team would trade Hill for Roberts, how much of a stretch is it to say that Roberts is valued more on the market? I post a broader perspective on why he's valued so highly, including his very relevent minor league numbers, and you fall back on saying "Are his 2007 numbers a lie? His first full year in the majors was a career year. That's fact." If you think GMs look at his 2007 win-loss record and nothing else, then that's your mistake. But I've seen you discuss other players and I know you're definitely more objective in other cases. Look at his minor league numbers I posted again. Then look at the gamelogs for his 2006 starts and look at the improvements he made. Then consider 2007, his "career year," was his first full year in the majors. I don't know why you're being so absurd with this - you're either unfairly belittling him or pretending anyone is putting him in the Hall and nothing between. If anyone is being unreasonable...

Owl, Last time. I have stated Hill's numbers accurately. I have not said one derogatory word about the man. I have never presented my opinion as a fact and have never belittled Hill.

You, on the other hand have called me absurd, have accused me of presenting my opinion as fact, have called Hill's won-loss and ERA record as being my opinion, and have stated that Hill is worth more than Roberts as a fact, rather than your opinion. You have also knowingly misquoted me numerous times.

If you wish to pursue reasonable baseball discussion, I'm with you. If you persist with this track, I'm afraid you will be ignored.

[Roll Tide]

This is amazing. I have accurately stated Rich Hill's numbers. Nothing more. I have said absolutely nothing untrue about him, and the only opinions I have put forth are that I like him and that I don't believe that he will be included in any trade for Roberts.

The facts are apparently considered an insult by Cub fans. I can't help you with that. I have not suggested that a Hill & Marmol is possible. I have, in fact, stated three times that there is no way it will happen IMO. The anger and yelling is uncalled-for. If you can show me that I am incorrect in stating Hill's record, then do so. To attribute any future possibilities to Hill as if they have already occurred would, I suspect, be more indicative of having smoked something than a simple statement of the actual numbers he has achieved.

Your wasting your time 5 ... I call it trolling while others here defend this lunacy by saying that they are not trolling & just dont agree with my opinion.

I have all but stopped posting in the Roberts threads. Saying who would or would not be traded as a certainty for Roberts is well Blasphemy as neither the Cubs or O's decision makers are posting here. Honestly I'd like the trade announced or called off, so our less than 500 post visitors would return to the Cubs message boards.

[Lou Cub]

Your wasting your time 5 ... I call it trolling while others here defend this lunacy by saying that they are not trolling & just dont agree with my opinion.

I have all but stopped posting in the Roberts threads. Saying who would or would not be traded as a certainty for Roberts is well Blasphemy as neither the Cubs or O's decision makers are posting here. Honestly I'd like the trade announced or called off, so our less than 500 post visitors would return to the Cubs message boards.

JohnnyK, don't you think we've livened up your boards a bit ??? Cub fans are among the most knowledgeable and insanely loyal fans we are a rare breed and most of us know what were talking about. I agree you've gotta give up talent to get talent but a lot of you guys on this board keep naming guys that won't be dealt for BRob. There is no way that Jim Hendry is gonna deal Felix Pie, Tyler Colvin, Rich HIll, Carlos Marmol, Jose Ceda or Josh Vitters in a deal for BRob, the Mets didn't even give up anyone that talented for Johan Santana. BRob's great but he's not Cal Ripken Jr and a lot of you guys treat him as such. It's like the fetish many Cubs fans had with Mark Grace, yeah he was great but there are better and he ain't sniffing the Hall of Fame and neither is Brian Roberts.