The "other side" to how AM handled this offseason

[Cubsfan]

I am sorry but this is just bs.

If the right deals are there and the right players are out there for the taking, you pull the damn trigger!

This idea that it all doesn't have to happen at once is wrong.

If the offers aren't there, then I agree with you. If the players weren't there for the taking, then I would agree with you.

But you have to strike while the iron is hot and it is on fire right now. You have to make deals when they make sense.

The Orioles have dropped the ball on the BRob/Payton to the Cubs stuff.

There was a lot of Millar to the Rangers talk before...Maybe we could have had Arias for him?

The problem with how AM handled things is he had to wait to see how other moves turned out...For example, he thought he would get Cedeno...That doesn't look like that is happening so now we are stuck with LH it seems.

Now, I for one don't think the BRob stuff is done yet...I think there is still a chance it will happen.

I don't always agree with Sports Guy, but this time I do. While none of us know for sure who was in the Cubs' offer, the O's probably should have made the deal. The reason to make the Cubs' deal and pay part of the contracts

to dump dead weight is simply addition by subtraction. As you stated, Payton would be gone and Millar could have been dealt. I can't believe that a deal couldn't be worked for Mora going to one of the West Coast teams. Huff should have some value. Even Gibbons might be tradable with the O's paying a big chunk of his contract. As it is now, the O's are still caught in that middle ground between rebuilding and fielding a decent team. Dump the dead weight and play the youngsters to see if they have a future. If nothing else, you load up on the prospects and use them as trade bait later on. Most experts are picking the O's to lose 95+ games, so how much worse can it be playing players like Moore, Cedeno, Murton (?), Patterson (?), Arias, etc.

[Sports Guy]

Some great posts in this thread. MacPhail has made the right moves so far, IMO. Has being methodical cost him so far. That's almost impossible to say, but the deals he's made are tough to criticize. For those criticizing him for not making the BRob deal, it ain't over til it's over. For people thinking he lost out by not moving Payton, Huff, Millar, Gibbons, etc., you are living in a dream world. Gibbons is unmoveable. Huff & Payton would require huge wads of cash just to get back marginal prospects. And Millar likely will have more value at the deadline to a team looking for a PH or someone to fill in for an injured 1B, possibly. Doubt he brings back more than a B prospect even in that situation. Trying to attach Payton to a Cubs deal was a great idea but it didn't work, either because the deal just wasn't good enough overall (maybe we had to take back Marquis) or maybe the Cubs just didn't want Payton. Who knows. MacPhail has decided to concentrate on the important stuff first. Tejada, Bedard, and now Roberts. The little stuff is just that. Little stuff. People complaining about the little stuff are missing the big picture. The big picture is that the team is headed in the right direction. No one, from what I can see, is fawning over MacPhail. Most objective observers feel he did the right thing by dealing Tejada, and feel that the O's made out well, particularly in the Bedard trade. When someone applauds MacPhail or takes a position that is pro-MacPhail and can't defend it, then that might be fawning. I haven't seen that yet. I would take a shot at SG for his impatience but RShack did it better than probably anyone I've ever seen. To borrow your own phrase SG, you are beyond foolish sometimes.

So, you are happy with guys like Millar and Payton over Murton and Huber?

You are happy with LH as the starting SS?

These aren't little things...This is about adding guys now that are better for us in the long and short term.

The Orioles are in a position where we can eat a ton of salary if needs be...They are in a position where when good young players like Murton are there for the taking, we need to get them.

We need to add guys like this because that is the type of talent we lack and can acquire for nothing.

If you sit there and only worry about the big things and then fail to get those big things done and you don't have enough time to get the little things done, there is a problem there.

You all can say the rebuilding doesn't have to happen in one offseason and that's fine...I am not saying it does.

However, this offseason was a great oppurtunity for us...We got offered a very solid package for BRob....A month ago and we got Payton going in that package.

We are now seeing some good young players out there for nothing but we can't get them because AM didn't clear the log jam we have on the roster.

This is a problem...This isn't about having to do the rebuild right now...This is about what is best for the team now and in the future.

This team is clearly in better shape right now....I have said that a lot. But just because AM made 2 good trades, doesn't mean he is above criticism, which many of you think he is.

[osfansince85]

First of all, let me say that I am 100% in favor of keeping Roberts an Oriole for as long as we can. Also, I very much am in favor of both the Tejada and Bedard deals.

That said, MacPhail knew that it was going to take a BLOW AWAY offer from anyone to pull the trigger on a Roberts deal, due mostly to the affinity our owner has for him. That said, it was obvious to all of us in November that the Cubs did not have the available package that the Orioles FO wanted for Roberts. Yet MacPhail dragged this out with the Cubs for 5 months, and just now, 5 days before Opening Day, says that a deal cannot be worked out? That is just ridiculous! This 5 months of wasted Roberts negotiations could have been put to better use.

Someone would have taken Payton if we paid a little money.

Gibby should have been cut.

A ss trade should have gone down using our excess pitching as bait.

Millar (while I love the dude) is the type of guy that any contender wants on their bench!

These are just a few of the MANY moves that could have been made. Also, I heard last night that Flannagan is working with Burress about a sidearm delivery to fool left handed batters. While this is cool, should our Vice President of Operations be teaching pitchers delivery styles, or maybe instead working the phones to find the "other" players to fill our roster? So we are gonna send down guys like Moore and Costanzo and keep guys like Fahey and Hernandez? Ridiculous!

Ok, now that its out of my system, I am ready to be optimistic again, as Spring is here, the 2008 baseball season has begun, and Orioles Opening Day is a few short days away!

I highly doubt McPhail had all his eggs in one basket. Just because it was reported in the media that we were rumored to be making a deal w/the Cubs for Roberts doesnt mean that he wasnt talking with other teams. After reading $ball, it opened my eyes to the "behind the doors" type conversation that goes on with GM's. Look, the GM's know who the veterns are out there, they know if they'll fit their ballclub, to say Flanny needs to be on the phone non stop with 20+GM's begging them to take Payton, Huff, Millar, Mora, Gibbons off our hands is silly. I see Flanny working with Burres as a huge plus, why not give some advice to the guy? It also signifies restoring part of the "oriole way", where older players come back and help out with the team. We saw it with BJ Surhoff this spring training. I'm just convinced its going to take a while for this rebuilding to happen, lets wait it out a couple months and then reasses whats been done, you know a playoff caliber team will have an injury and need to make some moves, or by 7-30, they arent satisfied with their chances to make a run. We'll be okay O's fans, am I content with our current state? NO, but I'm willing to be patient.

[Sports Guy]

Luckily for me, i have Rshack on ignore...However, his post has been quoted a few times, so I will respond to some of his points:

Wieters situation: Get your stories straight...I said I would give him 10 million if that is what we needed to do...Obviously, that wasn't the case and it never even got to that point. AM was in the negotiations and I wasn't...I don't know what was being said...I merely said that I would give him that if that is what it took...It didn't take that, so that is meaningles..

Bedard trade: Again, if the 3 for 1 was the best deal on the table, i would have made the trade. Those 3 were on the table in early december...We knew that then...Bigbird reported that. So, the question on this site was out there...If those 3 are the only 3 in the deal, do you make the deal...My answer was yes...However, it was obvious that in reality, those 3 weren't the only 3 on the table...Again, no way of us knowing that....You are making the same mistake Hoosiers did...You have to bring these points up in the context of the thread that the post was in...What was the thread about? How was the conversation going?

BRob trade: Pie has been off the table, at least according to everything we have read publicly, the whole time. So, if that is the case, then AM should have dropped the idea of trading BRob to the Cubs if he had to have Pie. So, since he didn't and he let this drag out for 4 months, chances are he was ok with not getting Pie.....It seems as if he was fine with the 4 players coming back...What he wanted, at least according to Zrebiac, is that 5th guy...That is asking too much and over-valuing BRob IMO.

Now, i have said that I don't think this BRob stuff is over and that I think a deal could still be made.

Also, i think that the trade from the Cubs isn't some great trade...But i think it is a very fair trade and there is a good chance that this is the best you are going to get for him.

Now, the question is this...If AM goes back to the Cubs and decides to take the rumored 4 for 1 deal, is this now going to be a genius move by AM or is he going to be bashed for making it???

As for the rest of your post...It is just more rshack bs and shots at me...I don't care but it is the reason i get rep points from people saying how much they can't stand him, calling him names and things like that. His obsession with me is absurd but whatever.

[Hank Scorpio]

Can we just exercise a little freakin' patience around here?

[Sports Guy]

Can we just exercise a little freakin' patience around here?

If the deals weren't out there to be made or if the young players weren't sitting there for us to acquire, i will totally agree with the stance you are saying here and what many people have advocated.

The difference is, those things are in place for us.

That is the key in all of this. We have the chance to do a lot more and really put ourselves in even better position.

Something tells me that if AM had dealt Millar and Payton, trade BRob for the 4 for 1 Cubs package and we acquired Arias and Murton this offseason, you would all be kissing his azz...Yet, i talk about it and I am not being patient.

[ledzepp8]

As for the rest of your post...It is just more rshack bs and shots at me...I don't care but it is the reason i get rep points from people saying how much they can't stand him, calling him names and things like that. His obsession with me is absurd but whatever.

Poor Sports Guy, people taking shots at him...he never does that to anyone. And I don't think RShack took one shot at you in his post, unless taking a shot at someone is exposing the idiocy of the thread they started. Perhaps people did give you positive rep, but I guarantee that the same if not more people gave positive rep to Rshack telling him how they can't stand you. So whatever man, it's not a contest. But you know, "Luckily for you, you have RShack on ignore".

[mefogus]

I don't know what was being said...I merely said that I would give him that if that is what it took...It didn't take that, so that is meaningles..

...

only 3 on the table...Again, no way of us knowing that....You are making the

You are willing to concede that your improper assessments of the trades above were based on incomplete information, and that I agree with. None of us can know the full picture. However, it appears that you and others are not willing to extend this viewpoint to the other aspects of the offseason. For example:

1) Meanwhile, there are a lot of guys out there to be had.

This is most certainly true. But how can you know that these players are: 1) even available, or 2) a fit within the context of the grander AM plan?

1a) Justin Huber...Solid guy....Pads get him for a PTBNL...

A nice addition for the Orioles indeed, but was not necessary available to them.

1b) Well, if they aren't interested in guys like Murton, that is a problem too.

Any team would be interested in him I would imagine. Now, whether or not he is available to us given our offerings, that is a different story.

2) (Millar,) Gibbons, Redman, Payton, Mora and Huff....We needed to get rid of some of these guys.

Agreed, but whose to say that they are desired by other teams? You and I certainly do not want them, so why would others. As far as I can see, these players are worth far more at the trade deadline than now. Agreed?

3) Money is basically meaningless.

I don't even know what this means, but most likely I disagree with it.

4) There is no way a major league team should have as pathetic an option at SS as Hernandez...There is not one ounce of justification for it...at least not intelligent justification.

I think it is your tendancy to say things like this that makes rshack "obsessed" with you. But regardless, there are a number of smart reasons why you would start the season with these players:

• The differences between them and those available are not worth the cost.
• There are other more interesting targets
• You are hoping and praying for a Billy Ripken-esque circa 1990 season from one of them.

OK, maybe that last one is not so smart.

-m

[Dipper9]

Poor Sports Guy, people taking shots at him...he never does that to anyone. And I don't think RShack took one shot at you in his post, unless taking a shot at someone is exposing the idiocy of the thread they started. Perhaps people did give you positive rep, but I guarantee that the same if not more people gave positive rep to Rshack telling him how they can't stand you. So whatever man, it's not a contest. But you know, "Luckily for you, you have RShack on ignore".

Just to be clear, I liked BOTH SG's post and Shackles post. They both made very valid points. The little war between them is just a fun lil battle that makes me giggle.

[Sports Guy]

1) Meanwhile, there are a lot of guys out there to be had.

This is most certainly true. But how can you know that these players are: 1) even available, or 2) a fit within the context of the grander AM plan?

Well, common sense tells you certain guys are available, whether it is reported or not..Doesn't take a genius to look at the Cubs situation and say that Murton could be dealt.

And very good, cheap young players should fit into any team's plans.

1a) Justin Huber...Solid guy....Pads get him for a PTBNL...

A nice addition for the Orioles indeed, but was not necessary available to them.

Oh, so the Royals were only allowed to trade Huber to one team?

2

) (Millar,) Gibbons, Redman, Payton, Mora and Huff....We needed to get rid of some of these guys.

Agreed, but whose to say that they are desired by other teams? You and I certainly do not want them, so why would others. As far as I can see, these players are worth far more at the trade deadline than now. Agreed?

I would agree that they may be more valuable at the deadline but not if they suck or aren't healthy....I still think Payton and Millar, even if it meant eat some or most of their salaries, could easily be dealt. They have value but at the right price.

Money is basically meaningless.

I don't even know what this means, but most likely I disagree with it.

BTerp mentioned the cost of a guy...Who cares? We have saved over 40 million this spring...If it costs you a few million to move an undesired player

[ChaosLex]

Just to be clear, I liked BOTH SG's post and Shackles post.

Yep, me too.

[Sports Guy]

Poor Sports Guy, people taking shots at him...he never does that to anyone. And I don't think RShack took one shot at you in his post, unless taking a shot at someone is exposing the idiocy of the thread they started. Perhaps people did give you positive rep, but I guarantee that the same if not more people gave positive rep to Rshack telling him how they can't stand you. So whatever man, it's not a contest. But you know, "Luckily for you, you have RShack on ignore".

Good for them....I probably can't stand those people either(like yourself), so I don't care.

[BaltimoreTerp]

Of course not. Nobody blames MacPhail for anything. Whenever he fails to accomplish something the assumption is that Angelos somehow caused it behind the scenes. If Angelos has really given him full authority, he'd have the freedom to eat contracts at least within a certain budget. Some of the ones we're talking about (Payton, for example) are not even that huge. Not to mention, if he hadn't spent four months pretending to trade Brian Roberts to the Cubs and two months squeezing Kam Mickolio out of the Mariners he might have been able to find someone who would take a Payton or Huff or Millar for a PTBNL so he wouldn't even have to worry about eating contracts.

What makes you assume that a general manager only focuses on one trade at a time?

Do you think that he just sits in his office playing solitaire in-between talks with one team, until a deal gets done and he can move to the next team?

It seems that a lot of people feel that way, which makes absolutely no sense.

[Lucky Jim]

I don't always agree with Sports Guy, but this time I do. While none of us know for sure who was in the Cubs' offer, the O's probably should have made the deal. The reason to make the Cubs' deal and pay part of the contracts

to dump dead weight is simply addition by subtraction. As you stated, Payton would be gone and Millar could have been dealt. I can't believe that a deal couldn't be worked for Mora going to one of the West Coast teams. Huff should have some value. Even Gibbons might be tradable with the O's paying a big chunk of his contract. As it is now, the O's are still caught in that middle ground between rebuilding and fielding a decent team. Dump the dead weight and play the youngsters to see if they have a future. If nothing else, you load up on the prospects and use them as trade bait later on. Most experts are picking the O's to lose 95+ games, so how much worse can it be playing players like Moore, Cedeno, Murton (?), Patterson (?), Arias, etc.

No offense, but you all are hardly objective. It was a marginal deal at best. I'm not particularly sorry not to have a handful of middling talents on our 40 man roster as opposed to Roberts.

Second, if you're going to start throwing around transactional suggestions on another team's board, at least be aware of what's going on. Mora has a no-trade stipulation. And there's simply no way he'd uproot his family and head west. Philly? Maybe. The West Coast? Not a chance.

By the way, it's not that it would be worse starting Moore, Cendeno, Murton et al. It's that it wouldn't necessarily be better for us long-term. Right now, AM doesn't particularly think the value of the Cubs' offer is worth the opportunity costs that pulling the trigger would create (i.e., the value of Roberts' on the field or in another trade). I'm inclined to agree.

As for the other points in this thread: I agree with Hank. The only reason to complain is if you think everything needs to get done now. Apparently, SG does. Which is fine. I'm not inclined to agree.

[Sports Guy]

What makes you assume that a general manager only focuses on one trade at a time?

Do you think that he just sits in his office playing solitaire in-between talks with one team, until a deal gets done and he can move to the next team?

It seems that a lot of people feel that way, which makes absolutely no sense.

I don't think every GM does this...But it does seem like AM did just that this year.

That may not be true...Bottom line is none of us know but we know that things have gone by us...We know that we didn't move other players besides BEdard and Tejada and we do know that there was plenty of other things to get done.

Besides, you and others have said this offseason that AM couldn't do certain things at once because he didn't know what he was going to get in a trade.

My guess is AM thought BRob was going to be dealt and he was getting his SS in return. Now, as of right now, that isn't happening. So, because of that, he wasn't working on things to get that SS in here(or at least if he was, we don't know about it and it hasn't happened).

This is an instance where he isn't working on multiple things....And really, it is tough for him to do so because you don't know what you are going to get in other trades but this is why you can't let these things drag out for months.