The "other side" to how AM handled this offseason

[Sports Guy]

I guess the question is what would we get back for Millar/Payton/Huff/Mora even if we paid salary? If you don't definitively know the answer to that question, then there's really no way to know that we'd be in a better position. Only MacPhail knows the details of the offers for those players, if anyone even answered the phone.

It doesn't matter what we get...Those guys aren't likely to fetch anything more than a potential BP arm or some other spare part.

I'm not saying you're wrong, necessarily... what I'm saying is that I'm happy that MacPhail has identified that this team needed blowing up and also that he identified the correct pieces to trade. He has made one decent trade and one very good trade, by most accounts.

And I agree with this....In fact, i have never disagreed with this or said anything different...My initial post praised him for pointing us in the right direction and things like that...But that isn't the point of this thread...The point is to look at how he did it(ie the length of time involved) and how other moves didn't get done. That is my issue. More could have and should have been done.

Now, more may get done before OD...I am not saying it is over however, again, i am discussing things as they are happening.

You all may want to sit on yoru hands and not discuss it and don't like talking about things that are largely based on reports and speculation and that is fine...Its up to you. I am not one of them.

I guess I just don't expect that this turnaround is going to happen instantly. Rebuilds, when correctly done, rarely do. I suppose we could completely clean house and get back average packages for our best remaining available players, then trot out a AA team to get mercilessly pounded. I'm okay with getting back C prospects for Millar and I'm fine with just dumping Payton.... but the fact of the matter is that nobody knows what the potential return would be, and without that information, it's impossible to speak intelligently about where we'd be afterwards.

Answer me this:

If by Monday, the Orioles will have traded BRob and something else for Murton, Ceda, Veal, Gallagher and Cedeno, we would have unloaded Millar and Payton and acquired a young MI prospect, that is ML ready, to replace BRob, you would be happy? True or False?

If your answer is true, i am not sure how you I am being impatient and question wanting to get a lot fo moves done now.

If your answer is false, please explain why.

[Sports Guy]

You're kidding right. It's meaningless that AM gets a better deal than you were asserting he should take, by waiting for the otherside to increase its offer. How is that possibly meaningless?

Did you actually read the rest of the post? Because if you did, your post here makes little sense.

Read the rest of the post and the post I quoted then come back to me.

[Fan4Life]

This is meaningless IMO.

I am not on the phone negotiating...I don't know what is being said.

On here, i am throwing out ideas, discussing what we do know and discussing what is being reported. AM knows what is being said and what he can get.

I don't...So, i am going to discuss things as they are happening.(in terms of what is being speculated and said)

Its not like if i were on the phone with Bavasi, i would say, well i know you will trade more but I will take less.

You have every right to do this....and I have every right to call it premature discussion and a waste of time. Until his (AM) strategy backfires, you have no room for criticism.

[Sports Guy]

You have every right to do this....and I have every right to call it premature discussion and a waste of time. Until his (AM) strategy backfires, you have no room for criticism.

I disagree because the fact remains that players have been dealt or are likely to be dealt and we either didn't get them or don't have the room for them.

That is a big part of my issue and has been all offseason...We needed to get rid of some of this clutter.

[Shopay]

Did you actually read the rest of the post? Because if you did, your post here makes little sense.

Read the rest of the post and the post I quoted then come back to me.

I did and still don't follow your logic. You're point back when you posted on the 3 for 1 EB deal was that AM needed to make the deal and move on to other things. You repeatedly ripped AM because you said he was missing other opportunities and that you would do the deal immediately. The argument that several posters had with you was whether AM should wait it out to get a better deal for EB. IIRC, you're position was that he should take the 3 for 1 deal now (December of last year). AM didn't and he got 5 players for EB instead of 3. And his press conference about the trade completely supports that he had to wait Bavasi out to make this happen. Again, i'm not following you're logic about why this is meaningless, especially in the context of the other poster asserting that AM may be waiting out the BR trade, etc. Isn't his point simply that perhaps we should trust AM's judgement because he may net us a better deal in the long run by waiting this out?

[Fan4Life]

I disagree because the fact remains that players have been dealt or are likely to be dealt and we either didn't get them or don't have the room for them.

That is a big part of my issue and has been all offseason...We needed to get rid of some of this clutter.

I think we all agree there is clutter to be moved.. I just think it's silly to get into discssions about something that hasn't played itself out.. it's mostly emotional ranting that at any moment can be made to look foolish, and has done so to several poster on here this offseason. Since the Weiters signing, when many posters on here were preparing to throw themselves off a bridge.. only minutes later to realize everything was under control..., I would think premature discussions about what this FO is capable of wouldn't get much traction...

[PaulFolk]

Answer me this:

If by Monday, the Orioles will have traded BRob and something else for Murton, Ceda, Veal, Gallagher and Cedeno, we would have unloaded Millar and Payton and acquired a young MI prospect, that is ML ready, to replace BRob, you would be happy? True or False?

If your answer is true, i am not sure how you I am being impatient and question wanting to get a lot fo moves done now.

If your answer is false, please explain why.

I don't really understand this argument. Just because we'd be happy if something happened doesn't mean we should complain or get impatient if it doesn't. It's all hypothetical at this point.

I'd be immensely happy if someone handed me a thousand bucks. That doesn't mean it's going to happen, or that I should expect it to happen, or that it's realistic, or that I should get upset if it doesn't happen.

[NCRaven]

Answer me this:

If by Monday, the Orioles will have traded BRob and something else for Murton, Ceda, Veal, Gallagher and Cedeno, we would have unloaded Millar and Payton and acquired a young MI prospect, that is ML ready, to replace BRob, you would be happy? True or False?

True.

And, I'd be happy if it happened the following Monday or the following Monday or .... It doesn't have to be this Monday. So long as there is progress over time, and I don't mean forever, but certainly more than just this off season.

[Pruke]

Again, AM did some very good things this offseason but he failed in others.

I think you did a good job of laying out the next round of rebuilding, but I'm not so sure I'd say he failed.

If the goal was to move the entire load of dead wood this offseason, then I agree, but I'm not so sure they planned on that being possible.

My guess is that we're going to have to absorb some of these folks being on the team until 'the starts align' and we trade them (ie: someone has a super hot JUN / JUL and someone wants them) or they simply fade off when their contracts are up.

Checkboxes all the way around on some of the base organization building that's taken place - what a crazy idea, right? Build the organization to accomplish some of the longer term goals. That was a must - let's hope it pans out.

I still think we'll see some of these folks moved over the course of the year but we still have a looooooonnnnnnnnnnnggggggggg way to go.

[Sports Guy]

I don't really understand this argument. Just because we'd be happy if something happened doesn't mean we should complain or get impatient if it doesn't. It's all hypothetical at this point.

I'd be immensely happy if someone handed me a thousand bucks. That doesn't mean it's going to happen, or that I should expect it to happen, or that it's realistic, or that I should get upset if it doesn't happen.

Paul, my point is that people would be very happy with these moves....These are moves I am suggesting yet people are saying I am being impatient...Yet, if AM did those moves, I bet people would be happy.

[olehippi]

I don't always agree with Sports Guy, but this time I do. While none of us know for sure who was in the Cubs' offer, the O's probably should have made the deal. The reason to make the Cubs' deal and pay part of the contracts

to dump dead weight is simply addition by subtraction. As you stated, Payton would be gone and Millar could have been dealt. I can't believe that a deal couldn't be worked for Mora going to one of the West Coast teams. Huff should have some value. Even Gibbons might be tradable with the O's paying a big chunk of his contract. As it is now, the O's are still caught in that middle ground between rebuilding and fielding a decent team. Dump the dead weight and play the youngsters to see if they have a future. If nothing else, you load up on the prospects and use them as trade bait later on. Most experts are picking the O's to lose 95+ games, so how much worse can it be playing players like Moore, Cedeno, Murton (?), Patterson (?), Arias, etc.

Let's see....

- Make the Roberts trade even if no one knows the players involved. Check.

- Trade Mora to a West Coast team, and to hell with his no-trade clause. Check.

- Trade Gibbons and eat his salary, even though no one wants him. Check.

- Play Murton, Patterson, Arias even though the Cubs never offered us any of them. Check.

- Seeing a Cubs fan agreeing with SG. Definite check......

[Hank Scorpio]

Answer me this:

If by Monday, the Orioles will have traded BRob and something else for Murton, Ceda, Veal, Gallagher and Cedeno, we would have unloaded Millar and Payton and acquired a young MI prospect, that is ML ready, to replace BRob, you would be happy? True or False?

If your answer is true, i am not sure how you I am being impatient and question wanting to get a lot fo moves done now.

If your answer is false, please explain why.

If AM could have gotten those 5 players back for Roberts, I have to think he would have done it. I would have been fine with that return, but losing Roberts and getting that return makes us significantly worse offensively, and that's saying something. It's arguable that Roberts is our most valuable offensive player.

[Hank Scorpio]

I think you did a good job of laying out the next round of rebuilding, but I'm not so sure I'd say he failed.

If the goal was to move the entire load of dead wood this offseason, then I agree, but I'm not so sure they planned on that being possible.

My guess is that we're going to have to absorb some of these folks being on the team until 'the starts align' and we trade them (ie: someone has a super hot JUN / JUL and someone wants them) or they simply fade off when their contracts are up.

Checkboxes all the way around on some of the base organization building that's taken place - what a crazy idea, right? Build the organization to accomplish some of the longer term goals. That was a must - let's hope it pans out.

I still think we'll see some of these folks moved over the course of the year but we still have a looooooonnnnnnnnnnnggggggggg way to go.

What he said...

[Hank Scorpio]

I disagree because the fact remains that players have been dealt or are likely to be dealt and we either didn't get them or don't have the room for them.

That is a big part of my issue and has been all offseason...We needed to get rid of some of this clutter.

There's still time to get rid of the clutter, dude.

Trade deadline isn't for another 3 months or something.

I wish there was a MiL TV package. I'm more interested in what happens between Frederick-Bowie & Norfolk than what happens at the ML level. That's much more important in the long run.

[RShack]

I heard last night that Flannagan is working with Burress about a sidearm delivery to fool left handed batters. While this is cool, should our Vice President of Operations be teaching pitchers delivery styles...

Man, if Flanny can help some marginal guy pitch better and get batters out, I don't care if they call him the Pope of Baseball Operations...