The "trickle down" effect is killing mid market teams like the O's.

[DrungoHazewood]

No' date=' the Orioles just need a better run organization. Can't draft well, trade what value you do have, and you end up needing to sign 30+ year old free agents looking for paydays. The solution to that is not to make the free agents take less money.[/quote']

A cap doesn't necessarily have to make the free agents take less money. If the cap were coupled with much more aggressive revenue sharing you could end up in a place where the players get more of the revenues with teams' payrolls much more tightly grouped. Hey, if you can imagine a scenario where the MLBPA accepts a cap you can imagine a scenario where the Yanks agree to transfer 40% of their revenues to other teams.

[mdbdotcom]

A lot of it is long history and success breeding sucess, but the Cardinals have a small-to-mid market city that they've turned into a very large, dedicated, lucrative regional fanbase.

The greatest failure of the Angelos regime was in not fully cultivating the DC market and growing the O's to be a regional powerhouse. They left the door open for the Gnats and are now stuck between two teams with substantially larger markets.

[DrungoHazewood]

The greatest failure of the Angelos regime was in not fully cultivating the DC market and growing the O's to be a regional powerhouse. They left the door open for the Gnats and are now stuck between two teams with substantially larger markets.

Maybe. But I'm a believer in the natural development of a fanbase around shared experiences and winning and history. I just don't think you'd ever get to a situation where folks from Northern Virginia and NW DC and Richmond and various other far-flung locals would all be die hard Orioles fans. Or if you did it would be way in the future. There's just too much history there, too many people turned off by the Senators and their various moves, and too many people like Boswell who cultivated this Angelos dislike over decades. I think the Orioles did about as well as they could attracting the K street rich folks to OPACY in the 90s. The Cards have been the dominant team in the midwest for over a century and the only team in St. Louis since 1954. You don't get to their level of commitment and organic fan support with 10 or 15 years of marketing to another city.

Also, I think there was always a feeling in DC that they were robbed of a team and they were a MLB city. How many Colts fans became Redskins fans? How many Colts fans from the Baltimore area? The die hards always thought they were eventually getting a team, and they weren't switching sides because someone decided to market to them.

[mdbdotcom]

Maybe. But I'm a believer in the natural development of a fanbase around shared experiences and winning and history. I just don't think you'd ever get to a situation where folks from Northern Virginia and NW DC and Richmond and various other far-flung locals would all be die hard Orioles fans. Or if you did it would be way in the future. There's just too much history there, too many people turned off by the Senators and their various moves, and too many people like Boswell who cultivated this Angelos dislike over decades. I think the Orioles did about as well as they could attracting the K street rich folks to OPACY in the 90s. The Cards have been the dominant team in the midwest for over a century and the only team in St. Louis since 1954. You don't get to their level of commitment and organic fan support with 10 or 15 years of marketing to another city.

Also, I think there was always a feeling in DC that they were robbed of a team and they were a MLB city. How many Colts fans became Redskins fans? How many Colts fans from the Baltimore area? The die hards always thought they were eventually getting a team, and they weren't switching sides because someone decided to market to them.

Baltmore went 13 years between football teams. Washington went 34 years between baseball teams. That's a generation's worth of difference.

[DrungoHazewood]

Baltmore went 13 years between football teams. Washington went 34 years between baseball teams. That's a generation's worth of difference.

Yes. But there were always people who remembered the Senators, whose dads and grandpas and uncles took them to MLB games in Washington. Washington had a MLB team of their own for 100 years, with a year gap here and there. Do you know the last city that was abandoned by MLB altogether before Washington? I think it was Baltimore in 1903. Before that Louisville. The Braves, Giants, Dodgers, A's and Browns all left two-team cities. The KC A's were quickly replaced by the Royals. The Pilots by the Mariners. The Braves by the Brewers. Now it's just Montreal commiserating with the ghosts of the Louisville Colonels and Cyclones.

[Il BuonO]

A lot of it is long history and success breeding sucess, but the Cardinals have a small-to-mid market city that they've turned into a very large, dedicated, lucrative regional fanbase.

Yep, attendance is not how a city's market is determined.

[TouchemAll]

I know it will never happen but baseball needs a salary cap. If every other professional sport has one...

Still don't see it happening but it should.

I've said this for years. :agree:

[bpilktree]

I don't see any evidence that the mid-market teams are worse off than they were 3, 5, 10 or 20 years ago. The 2015 Royals say hi.

I agree with a point but teams like the Roayls, Astros and Pirates were really bad over a 10 year period or more and they also drafted in the top portion. The Royals are similar to teh Rays put they have a bit more money to keep some of their guys but it will be intersting to see what the Pirates and Royals do in the next 5 years when their young talent starts getting expensive. Do the Royals have the money to lock up Hosmer, Cain Moose, and Ventura in the future or will there pieces start to leave and same with the Pirates. Can they afford Cole or will he be gone.

The way i see it you have to develope young talent as a mid to small market team but then at some point when the get expensive trade them to keep the young cheap talent comming up the system. The problem is that trading the guys away sometimes hurts the way the fan base feels about the team when they feel you are close but trade guys away or let them walk. The Orioles last year could have traded some pieces away but when you are in a race it is hard to tell the fans and players you are quiting on the season. This off season we could use Jones or Britton to fill the holes we have with young cheap controlled players but what does that tell the fanbase. It basically says we are giving up on the season already and maybe the next two or so years so attendence drops and revenue goes down. It is a very slippery slope either way you go when you are mid market team and you can't make the any mistakes with drafting developing trading players at the right time as well. If the Orioles would have went out and signed Sandoval and Rameriez hoping the would be the big pieces to win a title and failed like the Red Sox the franchise would be stuck with them and have no money to fix it. The Red Sox just go out and sign the highest paid pitcher at the time.

[DrungoHazewood]

I agree with a point but teams like the Roayls, Astros and Pirates were really bad over a 10 year period or more and they also drafted in the top portion. The Royals are similar to teh Rays put they have a bit more money to keep some of their guys but it will be intersting to see what the Pirates and Royals do in the next 5 years when their young talent starts getting expensive. Do the Royals have the money to lock up Hosmer, Cain Moose, and Ventura in the future or will there pieces start to leave and same with the Pirates. Can they afford Cole or will he be gone.

The way i see it you have to develope young talent as a mid to small market team but then at some point when the get expensive trade them to keep the young cheap talent comming up the system. The problem is that trading the guys away sometimes hurts the way the fan base feels about the team when they feel you are close but trade guys away or let them walk. The Orioles last year could have traded some pieces away but when you are in a race it is hard to tell the fans and players you are quiting on the season. This off season we could use Jones or Britton to fill the holes we have with young cheap controlled players but what does that tell the fanbase. It basically says we are giving up on the season already and maybe the next two or so years so attendence drops and revenue goes down. It is a very slippery slope either way you go when you are mid market team and you can't make the any mistakes with drafting developing trading players at the right time as well. If the Orioles would have went out and signed Sandoval and Rameriez hoping the would be the big pieces to win a title and failed like the Red Sox the franchise would be stuck with them and have no money to fix it. The Red Sox just go out and sign the highest paid pitcher at the time.

Compare that to the Orioles of the late 1970s. In just a few years they either lost to free agency or traded just prior to free agency Bobby Grich, Don Baylor, Ross Grimsley, 20-game-winner Wayne Garland, Reggie Jackson and maybe one or two others and replaced them with rookies, castoffs, journeymen, and platoon players.

[Machado13]

But every professional sport doesn't have one. I'd guess a majority of all professional sports leagues in the world don't.

Meant the 4 North American major sports. As for international soccer, yeah and it's no fun that it's always Manchester United, chelsea, city, etc. same goes for bundesliga and Spanish league...

It's actually impressive that the low payroll clubs get attendance when those teams generally have no chance.

[Frobby]

I agree with a point but teams like the Roayls, Astros and Pirates were really bad over a 10 year period or more and they also drafted in the top portion. The Royals are similar to teh Rays put they have a bit more money to keep some of their guys but it will be intersting to see what the Pirates and Royals do in the next 5 years when their young talent starts getting expensive. Do the Royals have the money to lock up Hosmer, Cain Moose, and Ventura in the future or will there pieces start to leave and same with the Pirates. Can they afford Cole or will he be gone.

The way i see it you have to develope young talent as a mid to small market team but then at some point when the get expensive trade them to keep the young cheap talent comming up the system. The problem is that trading the guys away sometimes hurts the way the fan base feels about the team when they feel you are close but trade guys away or let them walk. The Orioles last year could have traded some pieces away but when you are in a race it is hard to tell the fans and players you are quiting on the season. This off season we could use Jones or Britton to fill the holes we have with young cheap controlled players but what does that tell the fanbase. It basically says we are giving up on the season already and maybe the next two or so years so attendence drops and revenue goes down. It is a very slippery slope either way you go when you are mid market team and you can't make the any mistakes with drafting developing trading players at the right time as well. If the Orioles would have went out and signed Sandoval and Rameriez hoping the would be the big pieces to win a title and failed like the Red Sox the franchise would be stuck with them and have no money to fix it. The Red Sox just go out and sign the highest paid pitcher at the time.

My only point is that I don't think the problem has gotten any worse over the last 20 years; if anything, it's gotten a little better, at least in comparison with 2000-09. I don't think the Orioles' task is harder now than five or ten years ago. The rich teams always have the advantage, but I don't think 2/3 starting pitchers are any harder to acquire now than they were before. Prices go up just about every year, and especially in the last few while the teams have been enjoying a large increase in national TV revenue and have more to spend.

[DrungoHazewood]

Meant the 4 North American major sports. As for international soccer, yeah and it's no fun that it's always Manchester United, chelsea, city, etc. same goes for bundesliga and Spanish league...

It's actually impressive that the low payroll clubs get attendance when those teams generally have no chance.

There are different expectations and the league championship isn't THE ONLY THING like in North America. You can be a small side finishing 15th in the table and still be a success with an FA Cup/DFB Pokal/League Cup/Europa League win, or just the satisfaction of being a tiny team and not getting relegated. One downside of the NA model is almost every team is disappointed every year.

[DrungoHazewood]

I'd agree, but for some reason you don't consider me a real soccer fan, so what do I know.

I apologize for my prior statements, I should have left well enough alone. You can root for anyone you like, even if they dropped a 4-1 decision to Spurs in September.

[Machado13]

There are different expectations and the league championship isn't THE ONLY THING like in North America. You can be a small side finishing 15th in the table and still be a success with an FA Cup/DFB Pokal/League Cup/Europa League win, or just the satisfaction of being a tiny team and not getting relegated. One downside of the NA model is almost every team is disappointed every year.

Still, league championship or champions league is all anyone cares about really unless it's a true hardcore fan and generally those teams are from top 4 spots in league standings right?

Since its North America style, there should be a cap but their won't be one I know. It will take a bunch of teams ready to fold for that to happen and that doesn't seem to be the case right now.

[DrungoHazewood]

Still, league championship or champions league is all anyone cares about really unless it's a true hardcore fan and generally those teams are from top 4 spots in league standings right?

I don't think that's true. The FA Cup is pretty huge, and smaller trophies are still trophies. When Wigan won a few years ago I'm sure their supporters treated it like the biggest thing in the world. Relegation battles can be just as crazy. I know that 1860 Munich was fighting relegation from the 2nd to the 3rd tier of Germany last year and their home playoff with Holstein Keil (who!?) sold out the 60k-seat Allianz Arena.

Since its North America style, there should be a cap but their won't be one I know. It will take a bunch of teams ready to fold for that to happen and that doesn't seem to be the case right now.

The MLBPA might consider a cap if they were guaranteed something like 50% of revenues.