Caleb Joseph ranked 4th best catcher in MLB

[Can_of_corn]

When was "at the time"? If the conversation occurred midway through the season, then I could see most people thinking Wieters would right the ship, return to his old form, and brush aside the QO when offered to him. It wouldn't be surprising to me if many of those arguing for offering the QO in the summer would later change their minds toward the end of the season when it was clear Wieters was still far from his old self.

I don't mind that Wieters accepted the qualifying offer since it's quite possible he could have a big bounce back season this year.

I'm not sure adding 1/16 to the O's budget for this season would make as much difference then if Wieters returns to form.

[sportsfan8703]

Matt just needs to hit. Then this doesn't matter. We still have had a really good offseason that would be better if we signed Davis. This didn't preclude us from keeping O'day or CD. PA has the money. It was pretty much a foregone conclusion we were going to try and go cheap to fill out the rotation. That's been the model so far. Worley helps as a swing guy. Now we just need to sign one vet to a 1 year deal. Have another guy on a milb contract, and hope Bundy is healthy. That's the plan.

[Aristotelian]

When was "at the time"? If the conversation occurred midway through the season, then I could see most people thinking Wieters would right the ship, return to his old form, and brush aside the QO when offered to him. It wouldn't be surprising to me if many of those arguing for offering the QO in the summer would later change their minds toward the end of the season when it was clear Wieters was still far from his old self.

I don't mind that Wieters accepted the qualifying offer since it's quite possible he could have a big bounce back season this year.

Nope. Look at the thread cited above. "At the time" was October to November 2015, right up to the QO deadline.

[JayThomas]

Really? I didn't hear that at all. Not even Frobby wanted Markakis back for the amount of money the orioles were going to have to pay him. Buying him out was the smart thing to do. At the end of the day, Duquette made a poor decision to offer a 30-year old catcher a $16 million contract when he had a perfectly capable catcher on his roster for $14 million less. It wasn't a smart gamble and it cost him and the O's.

Not to jump the shark here or anything, but if it was so obvious that we had a perfectly capable catcher on the roster for <$2M, and we were going to get 2 months of a half-speed Matt Wieters and then be between a rock and a hard place w.r.t. the QO, why the heck didn't we jettison him for a bag of balls at the trade deadline? His August and Sept were worth nothing to us.

[24fps]

Not to jump the shark here or anything, but if it was so obvious that we had a perfectly capable catcher on the roster for <$2M, and we were going to get 2 months of a half-speed Matt Wieters and then be between a rock and a hard place w.r.t. the QO, why the heck didn't we jettison him for a bag of balls at the trade deadline? His August and Sept were worth nothing to us.

Buck Showalter.

[scOtt]

Exactly. Unfortunately, this situation has really stumped some normally smart baseball people. If you look at the entire situation, there was little reason to believe Wieters was going to get a better offer than a $16 million season to rebuild his value. I mean, how dumb was the QO that Boros actually advised to take it?

You make a great point there. But I'n still glad we have him.

e: I'm glad we have both of them. I think they'll make a great tandem.

[Tony-OH]

Tony, I know that you were one of the few that was opposed to offering the QO at the time. Many seem to be voicing opposition now in hindsight, but you and a very few others said so at the time. I disagreed then, and still think offering the QO was a logical decision. His accepting it was surprising to me. I am curious, though, as to where you heard that Boras advised Wieters to accept the QO. This is the first I have heard it suggested that this was Boras' advice. In fact, I have read others comment that they suppose that it was strictly Wieters' decision.

Personally, I don't think any Boros clients make "decisions on their own". They may tell him at some point this is what they want to do, but I'm certain he's given them solid financial information before they make that decision. That's why they hire a guy like Boras. He knows what's best financially for his clients. As much as fans hate him, he's the best at what he does and if a player is looking for the bottom dollar, they hire Boras to represent them.

As for the QO, I just respectfully disagree with anyone who thought it was a good gamble to give Wieters the QO due to the circumstances surrounding him. He had not performed well enough for long enough to garner a big time contract on the open market and there was not a high demand for catchers this off season. Add in having a capable much cheaper replacement in Joseph, the Orioles traditional spending limitations, and it was not a good gamble in my opinion.

[Tony-OH]

Not to jump the shark here or anything, but if it was so obvious that we had a perfectly capable catcher on the roster for <$2M, and we were going to get 2 months of a half-speed Matt Wieters and then be between a rock and a hard place w.r.t. the QO, why the heck didn't we jettison him for a bag of balls at the trade deadline? His August and Sept were worth nothing to us.

I don't really understand this at all. What would be in it for the Orioles by trading Wieters for a "bag of balls?" I believe they determined there would be a market for Wieters this offseason and they could then QO him and get the extra pick. I think they felt that Boroas clients never take the QO so they offered it to them. What they failed to take into consideration is that I don't think a Boris client, coming off a major history and with less than a full healthy season under their belt was ever given a $16 million QO. Why would Wieters not take that? He's not going to get that much yearly in a long term deal and why not get paid $16 million while you attempt to regain your value?

The QO made perfect sense for Wieters/Boros to accept it.

[Aristotelian]

As for the QO, I just respectfully disagree with anyone who thought it was a good gamble to give Wieters the QO due to the circumstances surrounding him. He had not performed well enough for long enough to garner a big time contract on the open market and there was not a high demand for catchers this off season. Add in having a capable much cheaper replacement in Joseph, the Orioles traditional spending limitations, and it was not a good gamble in my opinion.

Sure, you were right. The few who called this in advance deserve credit. That said, it is still beating a dead horse because nothing new has been said on this thread. The majority who wanted to extend the QO were hoping Wieters would decline for exactly the same reason that you did not want to offer the QO. I.e., we all agree that CJ deserves to be a starter. Interesting that what you saw plain as day was equally a "no brainer" to folks on the other side. I thought it was a borderline case but leaned strongly to the QO because of the history of the CBA.

What I underestimated is the greed factor. I really thought Wieters would be fine with a $40-$50M deal in order to have a reasonable guaranteed payday now and avoid the risk of going back on the market at Age 31 after a second bad year or injury. If he has a big year, he could be in line for $60M or more on top of the $16M, sure, but if I were him I would be much more concerned about having another off year and looking at a marginal one year deal. The QO gives him less money now but the opportunity to go for the real big bucks later.

I really think this move is not going to work out well for him but we shall see.

[justD]

Would it be worth it to have Wieters in the fold next year if he was to be the key to getting Tillman back on track?

I've heard postgame interview after postgame interview where Tillman credited Wieters with knowing what to throw when he would get into trouble, in order to get him back on track.

In an interview on 105.7 with Brett Hollander during FanFest, he again spoke of how often Wieters knows just what to do when Tillman's having a day when, say, his curveball isn't working, or he can't find the zone with his fastball.

I always assumed the other pitchers might receive a similar benefit. We need any help we can get to get Tillman, Gonzalez, Gausman to improve in 2016. I love what Caleb Joseph has done in MW's absence, but I'm not sure he brings the same level of guidance behind the plate.

[Aristotelian]

Would it be worth it to have Wieters in the fold next year if he was to be the key to getting Tillman back on track?

Didn't we have Wieters and Tillman last year? How'd that work out?

Tillman seemed to do just fine with CJ in 2014. In fact, every single pitcher on the Orioles seemed to do better with CJ.

[osfan83]

Sure, you were right. The few who called this in advance deserve credit. That said, it is still beating a dead horse because nothing new has been said on this thread. The majority who wanted to extend the QO were hoping Wieters would decline for exactly the same reason that you did not want to offer the QO. I.e., we all agree that CJ deserves to be a starter. Interesting that what you saw plain as day was equally a "no brainer" to folks on the other side. I thought it was a borderline case but leaned strongly to the QO because of the history of the CBA.

What I underestimated is the greed factor. I really thought Wieters would be fine with a $40-$50M deal in order to have a reasonable guaranteed payday now and avoid the risk of going back on the market at Age 31 after a second bad year or injury. If he has a big year, he could be in line for $60M or more on top of the $16M, sure, but if I were him I would be much more concerned about having another off year and looking at a marginal one year deal. The QO gives him less money now but the opportunity to go for the real big bucks later.

I really think this move is not going to work out well for him but we shall see.

Agreed...I think he was crazy taking the offer. If he isn't hitting by Memorial Day, and the O's are winning with CJ behind the plate, MW becomes a bench player, and will get very small contract offers in 2017.

[Tony-OH]

Would it be worth it to have Wieters in the fold next year if he was to be the key to getting Tillman back on track?

I've heard postgame interview after postgame interview where Tillman credited Wieters with knowing what to throw when he would get into trouble, in order to get him back on track.

In an interview on 105.7 with Brett Hollander during FanFest, he again spoke of how often Wieters knows just what to do when Tillman's having a day when, say, his curveball isn't working, or he can't find the zone with his fastball.

I always assumed the other pitchers might receive a similar benefit. We need any help we can get to get Tillman, Gonzalez, Gausman to improve in 2016. I love what Caleb Joseph has done in MW's absence, but I'm not sure he brings the same level of guidance behind the plate.

Tillman slash line with catchers in 2015:

Joseph - .234/.309/.381/.690 and 3.51 ERA in 12 starts

Wieters - .278/.327/.410/.737 and 4.88 ERA in 15 starts

Not sure I see where Wieters helps him all that much over Joseph.

[birrman54]

I think Tillman should worry more about actually exercising during the offseason and less about who happens to be squatting behind home plate.

This thread is hilarious to me considering just 2 or 3 years ago everyone was stamping their feet about how pathetic it was that the Orioles weren't going to extend Wieters and he'd be a Yankee soon and how important keeping him would be for our pitching staff.

Times sure change.

[Creamsicle]

I hope the Oze have a great season next year. But if we're in the toilet in July and Tweeter is hitting the cover off the ball ...

Let's just say I loves me some CaJo.