How to determine when the SP should get the win!

[RayC]

I go way back in understanding the rules of baseball, and I seem to remember that at one time (admittedly, this was many, many years ago) the SP got the win as long as the team was leading at the time that he was taken out for a relief pitcher, so long as there were no runners on base who would, potentially tie the game.

Sometime, years ago (I would like to know when this occurred), they changed the rule, where the SP had to pitch at least 5 innings in order to get the win.

I trust that the OH senior posters would be able to provide this info?

Thank you,

[RayC]

Forgot to mention this, but the reason I am concerned about this, is Worley worked 4 2/3 innings, had the lead, but Brach got the win although only pitched 1 1/3 innings.

I think that is what the broadcast team said at the end of the game.

[Filmstudy]

I go way back in understanding the rules of baseball, and I seem to remember that at one time (admittedly, this was many, many years ago) the SP got the win as long as the team was leading at the time that he was taken out for a relief pitcher, so long as there were no runners on base who would, potentially tie the game.

Sometime, years ago (I would like to know when this occurred), they changed the rule, where the SP had to pitch at least 5 innings in order to get the win.

I trust that the OH senior posters would be able to provide this info?

Thank you,

For my entire lifetime (born 1963), the starter needed to pitch 5 to get the win unless the game was rain-shortened (less than 6 innings or 5 inning, if I recall correctly), in which case the starter could pitch 4.

The other rule which comes up from time to time is whether or not a pitcher was deemed to pitch "briefly and inneffectively" thus allowing the official scorer to award the win to a different pitcher. That clause is rarely invoked, but it does occasionally happen.

[Can_of_corn]

#Killthewin

[RayC]

For my entire lifetime (born 1963), the starter needed to pitch 5 to get the win unless the game was rain-shortened (less than 6 innings or 5 inning, if I recall correctly), in which case the starter could pitch 4.

The other rule which comes up from time to time is whether or not a pitcher was deemed to pitch "briefly and inneffectively" thus allowing the official scorer to award the win to a different pitcher. That clause is rarely invoked, but it does occasionally happen.

Well I go back to the early fifties...sorry!

[Filmstudy]

I looked around a bit to see if I could find when the Win rule might have changed, but I can't find it. There is a site that says the Save rule was added officially in 1969 and changed subsequently in 1973 and 1975.

The rules here:

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/official_scorer_10.jsp

contain an interesting nugget I never knew. Specifically:

Rule 10.17© Comment: The official scorer generally should, but is not required to, consider the appearance of a relief pitcher to be ineffective and brief if such relief pitcher pitches less than one inning and allows two or more earned runs to score (even if such runs are charged to a previous pitcher). Rule 10.17(b) Comment provides guidance on choosing the winning pitcher from among several succeeding relief pitchers.

This comment appears to have been added in recent years.

Another interesting tidbit about batting out of order:

Rule 10.01(b)

(4) The official scorer shall not call the attention of any umpire or of any member of either team to the fact that a player is batting out of turn.

In Baltimore, the official scorer used to sit right next to the O's PR director. I wonder if the intent was that the OS can respond to questions about batting out of order. I also wonder what transpired to cause this rule to be added.

[Munson]

According to this, the modern day win rule started beginning with the 1950 season. It's a pretty long read.

http://sabr.org/research/origin-modern-pitching-win

[Filmstudy]

According to this, the modern day win rule started beginning with the 1950 season. It's a pretty long read.

http://sabr.org/research/origin-modern-pitching-win

Great read. Thanks.

[Enjoy Terror]

Sometime, years ago (I would like to know when this occurred), they changed the rule, where the SP had to pitch at least 5 innings in order to get the win.

There was an argument in Reddit about a particular Orioles game related to holds that involved Chris Tillman's ineligibility for a win because he only went 3 innings.

https://www.reddit.com/r/baseball/comments/47j2ht/did_brad_brach_deserve_the_hold/?

I thought it was an interesting read. But your question:

10.17 Winning And Losing Pitcher

(a) The official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher that pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, unless

(1) such pitcher is a starting pitcher and Rule 10.17(b) applies; or

(2) Rule 10.17© applies.

Rule 10.17(a) Comment: Whenever the score is tied, the game becomes a new contest insofar as the winning pitcher is concerned. Once the opposing team assumes the lead, all pitchers who have pitched up to that point and have been replaced are excluded from being credited with the victory. If the pitcher against whose pitching the opposing team gained the lead continues to pitch until his team regains the lead, which it holds to the finish of the game, that pitcher shall be the winning pitcher.

(b) If the pitcher whose team assumes a lead while such pitcher is in the game, or during the inning on offense in which such pitcher is removed from the game, and does not relinquish such lead, is a starting pitcher who has not completed

(1) five innings of a game that lasts six or more innings on defense, or

(2) four innings of a game that lasts five innings on defense, then the official scorer shall credit as the winning pitcher the relief pitcher, if there is only one relief pitcher, or the relief pitcher who, in the official scorer?s judgment was the most effective, if there is more than one relief pitcher.

[UpstateNYfan]

Most of the rules make sense, but there are times when they are questionable. Let's say the O's are up 4-2, seventh inning, starting pitcher leaves after 6. Givens comes in a walk, hit, couple outs and a three run homer. O's down 5-4. O's score two in bottom of the inning. Now 6-5, O's hold lead. Givens get win. He was totally ineffective, loses hold and gets the W. I understand the scorekeeper has some discretion in such a case but to my knowledge rarely uses it. Same rule if Britton blows save and the O's walk off. Britton wins. Relievers W-L record have to be looked at differently.

[RayC]

According to this, the modern day win rule started beginning with the 1950 season. It's a pretty long read.

http://sabr.org/research/origin-modern-pitching-win

Thank you,

I was sure that someone on the OH list would be able to answer this...not sure I am comfortable with the modern rule. I think the official scorer should be allowed to make a dertmination based on the individual game situation to award the SP a win if he pitches less than 5 innings.