Palmer said Bundy had shoulder stiffness in his last start

[wildcard]

21 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

How exactly is that provable?

Has Buck overused an O's pitcher and then that led to the pitcher goes on the DL with an injury?

[wildcard]

32 minutes ago, Dark Helmet said:

It's more about trying to keep him around as long as you can this year. But, maybe Bundy won't be on an innings limit. He's on pace to throw a 100 innings more than last year. They usually don't want to go more than 30-40.

I understand.  But you are saying he is abusing Bundy.  Does Buck have any history of abusing O's pitchers?   

[Can_of_corn]

6 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Has Buck overused an O's pitcher and then that led to the pitcher goes on the DL with an injury?

But how can I prove that "overuse" caused the injury?  What is the standard for "overuse"?  Can I just list O's pitchers that have been on the DL?  Can I use Tillman last year as an example?  How about Britton this year?

You know and I know that you can't point to use and state with any certainly it caused a particular injury.

[Dark Helmet]

20 minutes ago, wildcard said:

I understand.  But you are saying he is abusing Bundy.  Does Buck have any history of abusing O's pitchers?   

Has he really had one to abuse? How many guys has he had that are effective past 5 innings? Been hard enough to even find that. 

[wildcard]

1 minute ago, Dark Helmet said:

Has he really had one to abuse? How many guys has he had that are effective past 5 innings? Been hard enough to even find that. 

Buck has been with the O's for 6 plus years.  He has had many pitchers.  If you are going to call him an abuser I think its fair to ask you to look at his track record and point to where he has a history of abusing pitchers.

IMO Buck is generally known for protecting his pitchers.  That is why he uses the Norfolk shuttle so much.  Go get a fresh arm instead of use a reliever for too many days in a row.  Britton feels something.  Buck back off of him. Puts him on the DL to avoid  a long lasting injury.  Tillman has certainly been put on a conservative path to recovery from a sore shoulder.   

Injuries happen to pitchers all over baseball.   Some managers have a history of abusing pitchers.  Dusty Baker had that reputation in the past.  

My question is can you point to Buck overusing a pitcher that has caused an injury since he has been with the O's?

[wildcard]

23 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

But how can I prove that "overuse" caused the injury?  What is the standard for "overuse"?  Can I just list O's pitchers that have been on the DL?  Can I use Tillman last year as an example?  How about Britton this year?

You know and I know that you can't point to use and state with any certainly it caused a particular injury.

There have been many articles about Dusty Baker abusing Kerry Wood and Mark Prior.  Here is one.  So people do point to pitchers being abused.   Never heard it about Buck.  If its out there please tell me about it.

https://www.todaysknuckleball.com/nl/washington-nationals/dusty-baker-changed-way-handles-pitchers/

 

[Can_of_corn]

3 minutes ago, wildcard said:

There have been many articles about Dusty Baker abusing Kerry Wood and Mark Prior.  Here is one.  So people do point to pitchers being abused.   Never heard it about Buck.  If its out there please tell me about it.

https://www.todaysknuckleball.com/nl/washington-nationals/dusty-baker-changed-way-handles-pitchers/

 

Sure they do, but that isn't proof. 

[wildcard]

Just now, Can_of_corn said:

Sure they do, but that isn't proof. 

Call it what you want.  Can you point to anything like it about Buck?

[Can_of_corn]

4 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Call it what you want.  Can you point to anything like it about Buck?

I can certainly point to Brach and Bundy obviously fading in the second half last year.

Otherwise I'm not about to speculate on what action caused what injury.  It just isn't a game I care to play.

[wildcard]

2 minutes ago, Can_of_corn said:

I can certainly point to Brach and Bundy obviously fading in the second half last year.

Otherwise I'm not about to speculate on what action caused what injury.  It just isn't a game I care to play.

OK, but neither of those two came down with an injury last year, this off season, or this year.  

[Can_of_corn]

1 minute ago, wildcard said:

OK, but neither of those two came down with an injury last year, this off season, or this year.  

Didn't say they did.

[murph]

Skimmed the thread.  Definitely get the sentiment of concern on pushing Bundy, but didn't see anything else on the OP mention of shoulder stiffness. That was my biggest takeaway/concern from the thread. Was this a post game comment? Meaning the "last game" was last night or it was the previous game (a little less concerning, pitch fx had Bundys velo as 92 for average and hitting 95 max). Just hoping the "stiffness" was really really minor. 

[Dark Helmet]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

Buck has been with the O's for 6 plus years.  He has had many pitchers.  If you are going to call him an abuser I think its fair to ask you to look at his track record and point to where he has a history of abusing pitchers.

IMO Buck is generally known for protecting his pitchers.  That is why he uses the Norfolk shuttle so much.  Go get a fresh arm instead of use a reliever for too many days in a row.  Britton feels something.  Buck back off of him. Puts him on the DL to avoid  a long lasting injury.  Tillman has certainly been put on a conservative path to recovery from a sore shoulder.   

Injuries happen to pitchers all over baseball.   Some managers have a history of abusing pitchers.  Dusty Baker had that reputation in the past.  

My question is can you point to Buck overusing a pitcher that has caused an injury since he has been with the O's?

I'm talking about Bundy. A guy who has had a history of arm issues. A guy who is on pace to throw over 200 innings after throwing 109 last year. I never said Buck had a history of abusing pitchers. I said he's abusing Bundy. And the results are TBD. 

Maybe the Orioles realize Bundy has a short shelf life, and they are going to get what they can while they can. 

But a pitcher like Bundy doesn't need to be pushed 8 innings if he's already given you 7 solid innings. 

I can name Tillman and O'Day as guys that suffered injuries. Britton? But, you will just say injuries happen and that isn't Buck. So, I'm keeping it to Bundy and my concern on how he's being handled. 

[backwardsk]

42 minutes ago, RZNJ said:

Forget the abuse angle. I just question the logic of taking a pitcher, whose velocity was down in his last start, was at 99 pitches after 7, had no chance of a complete game shutout, and asking him to start another inning.

Buck continue's to ask his starters to go that extra batter or that extra inning and it accomplishes nothing.  Invariably, it doesn't save the bullpen but just makes their job harder.  Buck is smart but he's not infallible.  Pretty stupid to ask more from Bundy last night.   Would 8 shutout innings and 115 pitches proven anything?

If he goes 8, which really could have been as little as an extra pitch if Hardy makes the catch and they roll a DP, then you don't have O'Day looking at trying to pitch three days in a row tonight.

[Dark Helmet]

17 minutes ago, murph said:

Skimmed the thread.  Definitely get the sentiment of concern on pushing Bundy, but didn't see anything else on the OP mention of shoulder stiffness. That was my biggest takeaway/concern from the thread. Was this a post game comment? Meaning the "last game" was last night or it was the previous game (a little less concerning, pitch fx had Bundys velo as 92 for average and hitting 95 max). Just hoping the "stiffness" was really really minor. 

Palmer mentioned during the post-game that Bundy had some stiffness in the back of his shoulder...then said it was a late. So, there was something, just not clear what. I was wondering if that was reported or if that was just something Palmer knew