Its decision time for the future

[wildcard]

44 minutes ago, Black Bat said:

If you are looking to rebuild then why on earth would you keep Trumbo, Davis and Jones?  They're not part of the future.  Can't be.  Get something for them too.  Imagine unloading those three contracts - you could then easily sign Manny even if he asks for the moon. Especially when you have a bunch of developmental-type players moving up over the course of 2-3 years.  The sooner you start this movement, and it's inevitable, the sooner you develop a young starting staff and fielders to complement defensively.

I agree with the other points made in conjunction to rebuilding, which is the point.  You can't continue applying band-aids before making the leap from annual quasi-contender to developmental mode.  Keeping those dead-weights will be doing exactly that.  Pull off the Band-Aid at once.  It will hurt at first but after that initial shock, you'll get your bearings straight and you'll be quite amazed at the level of attention and backing from the fans when you go head-first into such a movement.   

In the OP I pointed out the 6 things I think need to be done prior to the July 31 trade deadline.  If the O's did those things that would be a very agressive approach.   In reality the O's will probably not accomplish those 6 items in that timeframe.    

I would see where the O's are after executing those items.   Who did they get back for Britton?  Is Manny staying or going.  And if he goes who do the O's get back.  Are Buck and Dan extending.  These are keys to the future.

Once those items are known then Davis is really on off season issue on whether the stays or goes. With Trumbo numbers being what they are does any one want him?  And does Jones want to stay?   i think that depend on what happens with the item mentioned above.  

There are a lot of issues that need to be thought through.   The first group IMO are the ones I mentioned.   Mostly because of the value that Britton and Manny can bring back with two pennant races left to go through.  The other O's players in this group are free agents after  the season.   So the time to act on them is now if the O's want to get anything at all for them.

[thezeroes]

1 minute ago, birdwatcher55 said:

I don't see Jones studying here for a rebuild. He would waive the NTC in my opinion. You let the clock run out on Hardy.

He does not have a no trade clause.  He has the ability to refuse to be traded to teams he does not want to go to.  He also is a FA after next season.  Why would he allow himself to be traded to a team he does not want to play for???

[thatbearflies]

Article is a few days old, but: http://www.foxsports.com/mlb/story/trade-deadline-guide-athletics-tigers-orioles-rosenthal-062017

Rebuilds are not pretty, they are not guaranteed, but I look at this as an opportunity to restock the farm and stabilize the franchise long term. I wouldn't even necessarily exclude inner division trades. The best deal, best package lands the player. 

[oriolediehard]

We need to clean house now.  We have nothing to lose.  We are the laughing stock of baseball now.  It looks like Showalter lost control of the team.  I can't remember the O's pitching this bad.  With this staff we have no chance to get out of the cellar.  Why didn't take a chance on Fister, so the Red Sox scooped him up.  One stupid move after another. Nothing reasonable. Nothing ready In the farm, just a mess.

[SteveA]

3 minutes ago, oriolediehard said:

We need to clean house now.  We have nothing to lose.  We are the laughing stock of baseball now.  It looks like Showalter lost control of the team.  I can't remember the O's pitching this bad.  With this staff we have no chance to get out of the cellar.  Why didn't take a chance on Fister, so the Red Sox scooped him up.  One stupid move after another. Nothing reasonable. Nothing ready In the farm, just a mess.

1) This stuff about the manager losing control of the team is ridiculous.   When a team is playing badly, it looks like the players don't care.   It's just an illusion.   When a player makes an error like Tejada tonight and the team is 22-10, no one makes a big deal about it.   When it happens when we are 13-28, it's somehow a sign the player has given up or isn't trying.

2) I don't understand why people who think we should clean house and rebuild would want to take on a 33 year old reject who hasn't been good for a couple years, and was cut by a mediocre team before even getting a shot in the majors.   If you don't think we can win this year, and that's becoming more obvious every day, why in the world would you want to bring in an old guy who probably isn't any good and isn't part of the future.   

We're all pissed off at the state of the team, but let's focus on reality and not imaginary crap about Buck losing the team, or how we are somehow stupid for not jumping on a 33 year old who was bypassed by Parker Bridwell for a major league shot by the Angels and then released.  

[brianod]

While I agree this team is in a crisis and needs dramatic change, all the suggestions so far are lame and do nothing to correct the problem. Trade our best players for prospects who may or may not turn out?  In baseball and politics, it's all about the money.  The Angelos family bought this team for 173 million and it is now worth 1 billion dollars. Extend Manny, Schoop and Britton.  Announce to baseball that we may suck this year but we aren't going away. You guys want to compete? Or do you want to rely on miracles while our owners spend half the money of our rivals? I think DD's time has come and gone.  I love Buck.  After the above moves, I'd get a GM who can make impact signings and keep Buck. And, please, please, please pour money into our minor leagues and scouting and player development.  Because, that is where long term success comes from. For too long we have been operated like a mom and pop shop.  You want to spend 5 million at the trade deadline?  Well, you better cut someone making 2 million.  Please, that's embarrassing. Those of us that shell out big money for season tickets deserve better.

So, the real answer, whether any of you choose to admit it to yourself or not is that this team needs a dramatic cash infusion and that cash needs to be spent wisely, not thrown around.

 

[Sessh]

8 minutes ago, SteveA said:

1) This stuff about the manager losing control of the team is ridiculous.   When a team is playing badly, it looks like the players don't care.   It's just an illusion.   When a player makes an error like Tejada tonight and the team is 22-10, no one makes a big deal about it.   When it happens when we are 13-28, it's somehow a sign the player has given up or isn't trying.

We're all pissed off at the state of the team, but let's focus on reality and not imaginary crap about Buck losing the team, or how we are somehow stupid for not jumping on a 33 year old who was bypassed by Parker Bridwell for a major league shot by the Angels and then released.  

..except it's not "imaginary crap" since it happened in Texas and in his other two gigs, he was not seen by upper management as the guy that could lead their team to the championship they won the following year. It's not about the team giving up effort wise on the field as much as it is the team giving up on the philosophy of the manager and not buying into what he is selling anymore. That's what it means for a team to give up on the manager and that's what it means for a manager to lose the clubhouse or lose the team. He has lost their confidence and why should that be surprising after he single handedly ended their season last year on the biggest, most embarrassing blunder of his 20+ year managing career. This team is failing in every way imaginable which is exactly what you'd expect to see if this was the case.The real "imaginary crap" is that people don't think Showalter has had a major role in decimating this organization and causing this whole mess we're in right now. THAT is the real imaginary crap going around here.

[SteveA]

Just now, Sessh said:

..except it's not "imaginary crap" since it happened in Texas and in his other two gigs, he was not seen by upper management as the guy that could lead their team to the championship they won the following year. It's not about the team giving up effort wise on the field as much as it is the team giving up on the philosophy of the manager and not buying into what he is selling anymore. That's what it means for a team to give up on the manager and that's what it means for a manager to lose the clubhouse or lose the team. He has lost their confidence and why should that be surprising after he single handedly ended their season last year on the biggest, most embarrassing blunder of his 20+ year managing career. This team is failing in every way imaginable which is exactly what you'd expect to see if this was the case.The real "imaginary crap" is that people don't think Showalter has had a major role in decimating this organization and causing this whole mess we're in right now. THAT is the real imaginary crap going around here.

Guess what, we can fire Buck but we're not winning the championship next year.

I think we are losing because our pitchers absolutely suck.   Not because of players failing to "buy what Buck is selling", whatever that means.

[24fps]

7 hours ago, Sessh said:

Well, I'm talking about the real world for the Orioles. You want to see full assed? Just wait and you'll see it because that's exactly what this organization is going to do instead. Rebuild and then see what you've got as the players get comfortable so you know what you have to build around. No one should be safe and saying you won't even listen to offers for some players is already shooting yourself in the foot. If someone wants to overpay for one of our guys, let them. I don't doubt someone would for Schoop.

As for the arguments with Gausman saying we don't want to trade him because he's going to be good for someone else, seems just a little bit selfish. You'd rather him stay here and stay on the seesaw instead of going somewhere else to realize his full potential? He's been here how many years now and still hasn't gotten any better? Someone will see his potential and offer up something for him and it just may be enough, too. You never know what some other team will offer. So, by going into a rebuild and declaring some of your guys with the most value are untouchable, you've already lost because you've significantly limited your options. You've GOT to at least listen and see what you hear. Everyone should be made available, but as I said, you want to see full assed? The Orioles will certainly oblige you before the year is over and beyond.

Do you think Dan Duquette refuses to take a call from a GM if he thinks he might have to listen to an unsolicited trade offer involving an Orioles' player?

[Sessh]

2 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Guess what, we can fire Buck but we're not winning the championship next year.

I think we are losing because our pitchers absolutely suck.   Not because of players failing to "buy what Buck is selling", whatever that means.

You don't understand what it means for a team to lose confidence in their leader and ultimate decision maker? I don't know what to tell you, then.

[Cumberbundy]

If Britton brings back what he should, trade him for the best package possible, hitting or pitching. Same for Brach, Givens, Oday, Castillo, & Smith. Sign Manny long term preferably, but if you aren't sure you can, send him out too. Keep Bundy and Gausman because likely they won't bring back what they can still become. Keep Schoop because he's the man. If anyone will take one of our other pitchers, let them enjoy. If Jones could bring back something special, byebye. Taylor and a Nats pitcher would fit well in DC. 

We could get back an incredible group of young talent for those pieces, it's championship or bust and we appear to be 5 starters and 1/3 of a lineup short at the moment. Load up on as many prospects you think have high ceilings as possible and grab young arms with big fastballs in each, just get the talent in and stop giving up draft picks for piles of crap. Dan should never make another move for Baltimore but if he's going to make any, Please, for the love of God, No More "win now" moves. 

In Bundy we trust. 

[Sessh]

1 minute ago, 24fps said:

Do you think Dan Duquette refuses to take a call from a GM if he thinks he might have to listen to an unsolicited trade offer involving an Orioles' player?

If the rumors are true about him believing we're contenders/buyers, then maybe so. I guess we'll find out whether or not they are true soon enough. If PA tells him to refuse, he's going to refuse. We'll find out.

[Cumberbundy]

14 hours ago, DirtyBird said:

Items 4 thru 6 are nothing but half-measures that would make absolutely no impact on re-tooling the organization.

 

Brach has to be in play.

Schoop has to be in play.

We have to be willing to move guys with high trade value.

Don't we hope to get a Schoop in a deal? ?

[SteveA]

Just now, Sessh said:

You don't understand what it means for a team to lose confidence in their leader and ultimate decision maker? I don't know what to tell you, then.

What makes you think that's happened?   Because Ubaldo can't throw strikes?

I am just wondering what evidence there is of this, besides simply poor play.

What about the guys having good years, like Mancini, Schoop, and Bundy?   Do they have extra confidence in Buck?   Or are they just playing well?

Manny had a terrible first few months but appears to be coming out of his slump now.   Is that just a baseball player who was slumping and now playing better, or did he somehow lose confidence in Buck for two months and now has it back.

Give me a concrete example that isn't just players underperforming that specifically indicates someone has lost confidence in Buck.   Has someone been questioning his decisions to the media?   Has someone complained about their usage?

[Cumberbundy]

14 hours ago, allquixotic said:

I would trade Bundy and Gausman for as many prospects as we can get in return, too. Their years with the Orioles, if successful, will be wasted if we have no other good pitchers on the staff to win games alongside them. And losing 3 out of every 5 games reliably is no way to run a ball club.

Trade them and maximize the prospect return. I expect us to need to cut nearly every failed prospect we have right now to make room for the guys we haul back from our fire sale ASAP.

Seems like an atrocious time to trade either. Cheap, incredibly talented, and pitching poorly. A contender won't want want them, so who do we deal them too? ?