Cafardo: Showalter losing the clubhouse

[OFFNY]

3 hours ago, POR said:

 

How could the Red Sox have won the division and been 18 games better than the Orioles for Farrell if he lost the clubhouse?

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Aglets said:

 

It's pretty simple. The Red Sox have better players than we do. They scored more runs, and allowed fewer.

Chris Sale, Rick Porcello, Drew Pomeranz, etc are a lot better than Bundy, Ubaldo, and crew.

 

 

 

3 hours ago, POR said:

 

Obviously. My point being that the fact that the Orioles started off good for the first month, does not prove whether or not Buck has lost the clubhouse.

I don't think you judge anything by 20% of the season.    

 

 

 

1 hour ago, Aglets said:

 

I think you can start to see some trends after 32 games.

How about after 139 games? After 86% of the season, the O's were 71-68 and still within reach of a wildcard spot. Again, I think when you consider we had the worst starting rotation in all of MLB that was significantly above their true talent level.

 

o

 

I agree with both of Aglets' responses. Thank you.

 

And again, in addition to the Orioles' starting pitching having been historically bad, the perennially very solid Orioles' bullpen was subsequently extremely overworked and without its best pitcher (Zach Britton) for half the season. 

With all of that going against them, I would expect a team like that to go somewhere between 59-103 and 67-95 ........ nowhere near the 71-68 that the Orioles were after 139 games, or even the 75-87 in which they finished overall after the major 4-19 nosedive that the team suffered at season's end.

 

o

[POR]

2 hours ago, Aglets said:

I think you can start to see some trends after 32 games.

How about after 139 games?  After 86% of the season the O's were 71-68 and still within reach of a wildcard spot.  Again, I think when you consider we had the worst starting rotation in all of MLB that was significantly above their true talent level.

I have no idea whether Buck lost the clubhouse.  I just think getting off to a good start does not proof anything one way or the other.

I think Buck is an above average manager.  

In general, except for the exceptional manager / coach, it becomes easier to lose a team after a manager / coach has been around for more than a few years with the same core players.  

  

[Flash- bd]

I would be happy to move on from Buck, despite the great things he has done here in the past 5 years, because a) I don't like a manager to have as much say as he seems to have in roster construction issues b) I am terrified of the idea of him as a GM after Duquette c) If he has lost whatever magic he was using to have us consistently overperform over the last 5 seasons or so (probably something to do with his superb clubhouse management skills, IMO), then I would prefer a manager who has a more modern and analytical/open-minded approach. 

[Aglets]

For the folks that actually think Buck has lost the ability to manage this team effectively despite the data that has been presented here:

 

-who would you get to manage this team instead that is better AND available?

[ArtVanDelay]

5 hours ago, Aglets said:

It's pretty simple.  The Red Sox have better players than we do.  They scored more runs and allowed fewer.

Chris Sale, Rick Porcello, Pomeranz, etc are a lot better than Bundy, Ubaldo, and crew.

If he lost the clubhouse, the players would’ve been pouting and dragging their feet.   There’s no way they could win games if they lost faith in the manager.  MLB players need a strong player-manager relationship to be able to do their jobs. 

[Aglets]

30 minutes ago, ArtVanDelay said:

If he lost the clubhouse, the players would’ve been pouting and dragging their feet.   There’s no way they could win games if they lost faith in the manager.  MLB players need a strong player-manager relationship to be able to do their jobs. 

Seems like David Price really didn't like him.   I doubt he was the only one.  Maybe that was enough.   Dombrowski said that he would've fired Farrell no matter how far they got in the post season.  That seems incredibly obvious to me that there were some off-the-field concerns.

[oriolediehard]

John Farrell from the Red Sox has been fired today.  Is he a good replacement?

[ArtVanDelay]

1 hour ago, Aglets said:

Seems like David Price really didn't like him.   I doubt he was the only one.  Maybe that was enough.   Dombrowski said that he would've fired Farrell no matter how far they got in the post season.  That seems incredibly obvious to me that there were some off-the-field concerns.

I know.  I was being sarcastic. 

[ArtVanDelay]

54 minutes ago, oriolediehard said:

John Farrell from the Red Sox has been fired today.  Is he a good replacement?

No.  He’s awful. 

[weams]

2 hours ago, ArtVanDelay said:

No.  He’s awful. 

He is real awful. 

[Sessh]

Last 5 seasons

John Farrell  432-378 (.533) Postseason: 12-11, 1 Pennant, 1 WS title

Buck Showalter 426-384 (.526) Postseason: 3-5

John Farrell = Awful
Buck Showalter = Great

Sure. Makes total sense.

[ORIOLE33]

It wasn't Farrell's fault Sale forgot how to pitch.

[ORIOLE33]

3 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Last 5 seasons

John Farrell  432-378 (.533) Postseason: 12-11, 1 Pennant, 1 WS title

Buck Showalter 426-384 (.526) Postseason: 3-5

John Farrell = Awful
Buck Showalter = Great

Sure. Makes total sense.

Lol...Exactly.

[ArtVanDelay]

12 minutes ago, Sessh said:

Last 5 seasons

John Farrell  432-378 (.533) Postseason: 12-11, 1 Pennant, 1 WS title

Buck Showalter 426-384 (.526) Postseason: 3-5

John Farrell = Awful
Buck Showalter = Great

Sure. Makes total sense.

I’ve never said Buck is great.  I’d say he’s a little above average. 

The Red Sox have much more talent.  Farrell is universally considered one of the worst managers in baseball.  I’ll be mildly surprised if he manages another game in the majors. 

Actually, now that I think about it, I won’t be surprised.  Some team out there will see his WS ring and think he’s a good manager. 

[Can_of_corn]

15 minutes ago, ORIOLE33 said:

It wasn't Farrell's fault Sale forgot how to pitch.

He could have given Sale some rest down the stretch.

Might have made some difference.

Third year in a row he was over 200 innings.