Congrats to Jim and Vlad!

[wildbillhiccup]

Just now, Larry18 said:

Brooks was a career .267 hitter, Cal .276 sometimes batting average isn't the best tool.

 

 

 

I'd argue that batting average is more important and more reflective of "pure" hitting ability. Sure Edgar sacrificed some power, but he hit .330+ some years. He was a better pure hitter than Thome. 

In terms of Brooks and Cal, you have to look at them in the era's they played and factor in defensive metrics as well. Cal, for example, was a complete anomaly at SS at the time. Player's at his position who could hit 20+ hrs and drive in 100 rbis each season were a rarity. If you put Cal into present day, and didn't factor in the streak it'd be interesting to see if he got in and how long it took, since power hitting middle infielders are a dime a dozen now. 

[atomic]

On 1/25/2018 at 12:36 AM, OsFanSinceThe80s said:

Chipper Jones career WAR is 85.  Vlad's career WAR is 59.3.  

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/guerrvl01.shtml

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/j/jonesch06.shtml

Vlad has less WAR than Reggie Smith who got 0.7 percent of the vote.  Definitely overrated.  Remember played in the steroid era and after they started testing his stats went way down.  So his offensive stats are not going to be that good comparatively. Hall of Fame in baseball is a joke. Guys who belong in aren't in.  Guys who have no business in the Hall are in. 

[Frobby]

12 hours ago, cimota said:

Vlad has less WAR than Reggie Smith who got 0.7 percent of the vote.  Definitely overrated.  Remember played in the steroid era and after they started testing his stats went way down.  So his offensive stats are not going to be that good comparatively. Hall of Fame in baseball is a joke. Guys who belong in aren't in.  Guys who have no business in the Hall are in. 

Your statement that Vlad’s stats declined when the started testing for steroids is flatly wrong.   Vlad was a top level hitter through his age 32 season (2007), then had a gentle, gradual decline from ages 33-36.    Pretty much what you’d expect to see from a player that age.     I’m not saying he didn’t use steroids (because, who ever knows?), but there’s nothing about his statistical progression that suggests it.    

It’s hard to justify Vlad purely on stats.    He got in, in part, because he was so unique, swinging at anything and actually hitting it.   And he so clearly loved playing ball.   It’s the Hall of “Fame” and I don’t mind having Vlad in there.    

[Rene88]

On 1/25/2018 at 6:08 PM, Beef Supreme said:

Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro and Mussina can go into the trailer behind the main building with Sammy Sosa and Mark McGwire.

Sigh...everything black and white. What % of players do you  personally think were using at the time? You think Bagwell was completely clean?

[Orioles4Life21]

I’m going to repeat what I said on Twitter. Let me know if you think I’m crazy. I was speaking about people around my age (23) so bear that in mind.

Barry Bonds is the best player in any sport that any of us have ever seen. Tom Brady? Not close. Its kind of weird to compare across sports but I think Barry at his peak was a better baseball player than Michael Jordan was a basketball player lol.

Obviously without the PEDs that wouldn’t have been the case. But he still would have been a no doubt hall of fame talent. His career WAR is higher than Chipper Jones’ and Jim Thome’s COMBINED.

[Rene88]

7 hours ago, Orioles4Life21 said:

I’m going to repeat what I said on Twitter. Let me know if you think I’m crazy. I was speaking about people around my age (23) so bear that in mind.

Barry Bonds is the best player in any sport that any of us have ever seen. Tom Brady? Not close. Its kind of weird to compare across sports but I think Barry at his peak was a better baseball player than Michael Jordan was a basketball player lol.

Obviously without the PEDs that wouldn’t have been the case. But he still would have been a no doubt hall of fame talent. His career WAR is higher than Chipper Jones’ and Jim Thome’s COMBINED.

Yep. It's absurd he isn't isn't in the HOF. The difference between him and Rose is Rose threatened the very integrity of the game itself. Bonds? He is a jerk, didn't need the juice but saw everyone else doing it...

People that blame the players for steroid use are just not educated. The issue is much more complex than that like most things in life.

[TheBee]

10 hours ago, Frobby said:

Your statement that Vlad’s stats declined when the started testing for steroids is flatly wrong.   Vlad was a top level hitter through his age 32 season (2007), then had a gentle, gradual decline from ages 33-36.    Pretty much what you’d expect to see from a player that age.     I’m not saying he didn’t use steroids (because, who ever knows?), but there’s nothing about his statistical progression that suggests it.    

It’s hard to justify Vlad purely on stats.    He got in, in part, because he was so unique, swinging at anything and actually hitting it.   And he so clearly loved playing ball.   It’s the Hall of “Fame” and I don’t mind having Vlad in there.    

I agree with every word of this post.  Very well said.

[Babypowder]

11 hours ago, Frobby said:

Your statement that Vlad’s stats declined when the started testing for steroids is flatly wrong.   Vlad was a top level hitter through his age 32 season (2007), then had a gentle, gradual decline from ages 33-36.    Pretty much what you’d expect to see from a player that age.     I’m not saying he didn’t use steroids (because, who ever knows?), but there’s nothing about his statistical progression that suggests it.    

It’s hard to justify Vlad purely on stats.    He got in, in part, because he was so unique, swinging at anything and actually hitting it.   And he so clearly loved playing ball.   It’s the Hall of “Fame” and I don’t mind having Vlad in there.    

I’m fine with Vlad being in because I am in no way a small Hall guy. I just don’t understand the support he gets vs other guys who were clearly better. Larry Walker has a better case for the Hall and he isn’t getting close yet. Bobby Abreu has a pretty identical case, and he dropped right off the ballot. If Gwynn was a slam dunk first ballot guy, all of these guys should be in, easily.

Really, while progress has been made recently, there is still a love affair with batting average that hasn’t been extinguished. There’s no other explanation.