National League rules stink!!!!!

[Mark Carver]

Just becaus I know you can't stand anyone disagreeing with you, I'm going to continue with this. You said that you wanted to see the best going against the best. That's why you want to see the pitcher facing a good hitter instead of a poor hitting pitcher. To carry your logic a bit further. Why not put the 9 best hitters in the lineup and the best 8 fielders in the field? The best against the best. Answer the question that you failed to the first time, please.

Can you do that on a 25-man roster?

[Bloopandablast]

Just becaus I know you can't stand anyone disagreeing with you, I'm going to continue with this. You said that you wanted to see the best going against the best. That's why you want to see the pitcher facing a good hitter instead of a poor hitting pitcher. To carry your logic a bit further. Why not put the 9 best hitters in the lineup and the best 8 fielders in the field? The best against the best. Answer the question that you failed to the first time, please.

Beat me to it.

[Bloopandablast]

I don't think this is germane at all personally. There are three components to a baseball game - hitting, pitching, and fielding. Hitting is a singular activity that is responsible for approximately 45-50% of the game. Pitching is a singular activity that is responsible for approximately 40-45% of the games. Fielding is a team activity that nine people combine to do and it is responsible for approximately 10-15% of the game. There is a huge difference.

Answer these questions for me and it will be clear this argument doesn't hold water:

1) If an All Star caliber hitter couldn't field or pitch at all, is there any possibility that said hitter would still find employment in the majors? Clearly the answer is yes. Look at Harold Baines, Edgar Martinez, etc... Even if there were no DH rule, guys like David Ortiz would still be employed. Heck, look at Manny Ramirez, a simply atrocious fielder.

2) If an All Star caliber pitcher couldn't field or hit at all, is there any possibility that said pitcher would still find employment in the majors? I hope we don't have to analyze this closely.

3) If an All Star caliber fielder couldn't hit or pitch at all, is there any possibility that said fielder would still find employment in the majors? I say no. Look at an Adam Everett. He is an unbelievable fielder, hits at an OPS of more than TWO TIMES the average OPS of ML pitchers, yet he has had trouble finding employment. If the world's best defensive player hit like the average pitcher, he wouldn't get a look from a MiL team, let alone a ML team.

Anybody else around here remember a guy with the last name of Belanger:D

[Knife_Dixon]

I personally like the NL rules because 1) I feel like it exposes teams who lack depth. It would seem it forces tougher decisions. I.e. do you pinch hit for Cabrera last night with two on and two out? And 2) it forces everyone to be a baseball player. Guys who have that extra facet to their game are rewarded. Plus I was a pitcher and loved to hit and I hated the DH. It is really not that exhausting to run the bases.

[Bloopandablast]

Mark Belanger hit at a rate that is almost DOUBLE the average pitcher. That is a huge difference.

You asked if a guy who was an all-star caliber fielder and a bad hitter could get a job, You even mentioned Adam Everett. Belanger was a worse hiiter than Adam. Had full seasons below the Mendoza line and yet a guy I consider one of the better managers in history (and you probably recognize that I am not an Orioles fan) kept running him out there.

[Bloopandablast]

Actually, I grasped it just fine. He is railing against specialization while failing to realize that the entire sport is specialized. If he wants to rail against specialization he should also be advocating that all fielders must pitch a representative amount. Otherwise, the manager can "hide" his bad pitchers at a position in the field. It is merely his frame of reference that is hiding the true nature of the sport to him (and you apparently).

Care to apologize?

Railing is your characterization, but whatever.

And you stating that I must advocate fielders pitching a representative amount again your characterization.

Each players fields, each player hits. I don't make Magic Johnson play center, (even though he won a ring playing it one game), but he does have to play D.

[Bloopandablast]

So, as I typed before, you have no problem at all with specialization so long as it is the specialization you agree with. That is very clearly what you're saying. I disagree with it except when I don't.

So you would advocate 100% specialization, 0%, or something in between?

Please answer. I am taking the family to dinner. Catch up with ya later.

[utvolzac]

I absolutely and utterly hate the archaic rules of the National League. Besides the novelty factor of watching horrible hitters try and not embarrass themselves, but we get the added bonus of watching our pitchers get tired and then have to go pitch.

The National League is the only league left that still does not use a DH. At the very least they should allow DHs when an AL team comes into town for inter-league play. We've already seen one pitcher (The Yankees Wang) get hurt and others have probably tweaked things trying to do something they don't normally do.

BTW, a double switch is not rocket science or such extreme strategy that it should overcome adding an extra hitter. On top of it all, is it really strategy to pitch around the 8th hitter in order to face the pitcher? Nope....

If the National league wants to play with their ridiculous rules, be my guest, but how about you not force the AL teams to go back in your time warp and allow the teams to use a DH.

Ok, rant over.

I'm with you Tony. NL games are almost unwatchable, IMO. Which is why I absolutely hate inter-league play.

[ledzepp8]

You asked if a guy who was an all-star caliber fielder and a bad hitter could get a job, You even mentioned Adam Everett. Belanger was a worse hiiter than Adam. Had full seasons below the Mendoza line and yet a guy I consider one of the better managers in history (and you probably recognize that I am not an Orioles fan) kept running him out there.

And Mark Belanger played in a completely different era of offense. People didn't lead the league with 60 homeruns and an OPS of 1200.

[orayole]

http://open-site.org/Sports/Baseball/History/Rules/1845_Original_Rules_of_Baseball

Alexander Cartwright created the first rules of baseball on September 23, 1845 for the Knickerbockers ball club. Several of these rules have survived the test of time and are currently a part of modern day baseball rules.

1. Members must strictly observe the time agreed upon for exercise and be punctual in their attendance.

2. When assembled for practice, The President, or Vice President in his absence, shall appoint an umpire, who shall keep the game in a book provided for that purpose, and note all violations of the By-Laws and Rules during the time of exercise.

3. The presiding officer shall designate two members as captains, who shall retire and make the match to be played, observing at the same time the players put opposite each other should be as nearly equal as possible; the choice of the two sides to be then tossed for, and the first in hand to be decided in a like manner.

4. The bases shall be from "home" to second base, 42 paces; from first base to third base, 42 paces, equidistant.

5. No stump match shall be played on a regular day of exercise.

6. If there should not be a sufficient number of members of the club present at the time agreed upon to commence exercise, gentlemen not members may be chosen in to make up the match, which shall not be broken up to take in members that may afterwards appear; but in all cases, members shall have the preference, when present at the making of the match.

7. If members appear after the game is commenced they may be chosen in if mutually agreed upon.

8. The game to consist of 21 counts, or aces; but at the conclusion of an equal number of hands must be played.

9. The ball must be pitched, and not thrown, for the bat.

10. A ball knocked out of the field, or outside the range of first or third base, is foul.

11. Three balls being struck at and missed and the last one caught is a hand out; if not caught is considered fair, and a striker is bound to run.

12. A ball being struck or tipped and caught either flying or on the first bound is a hand out.

13. A player running the base shall be out, if the ball is in the hands of an adversary on the base, or the runner is touched with it before he makes his base; it being understood, however, that in no instance is a ball to be thrown at him.

14. A player running who shall prevent an adversary from catching or getting the ball before making his base is a hand out.

15. Three hands out, all out.

16. Players must take their strike in a regular turn.

17. All disputes and differences relative to the game, to be determined by the Umpire, from which there is no appeal.

18. No ace or base can be made on a foul strike.

19. A runner cannot be put out in making one base, when a balk is made by the pitcher.

20. But one base allowed when a ball bounds out of the field when struck.

Unless you want to play by those rules exactly and only those rules, stop crying about purity. It's ridiculous.

[Moose Milligan]

Wow, it got a little heated in here! Touchy touchy! I'm glad to see RZNJ and Vatech could fix their little dispute like the two grown adults they are.

Anyway, I agree with Tony's excellent OP. In the National League Stinks thread in the MLB section I wrote:

Double switches!! OMFGZ!!! HOW WILL I EVER LEARN!!! LEFTY/RIGHTY MATCHUPS OH NOEZZZ!!!

AND WHEN DO I PULL MY PITCHER FOR A PINCH HITTER!!! AHHHH THE STRESS!!!

Man, I can't imagine managing the NL, the stress levels must be insane. Figuring when to do a lefty/right matchup as well as figuring when to pull your pitcher for a pinch hitter must rank right up there with being in the Oval Office and trying to determine whether or not to push the red button during the Cold War.

NL ball is God awful. Someone pointed it out on here last week, but it still remains the ONLY league (little league levels, college ball and independant leagues) where the pitcher still hits.

Whats worse is that there seems to be no sign that they'll do the right thing and pick up the DH anytime soon.

[PoorMike]

AL has a slight advantage in the AL since in most cases AL teams have a regular DH that is better than the bench guys the NL has DH'ing when they come over to the AL in interleague play, but they are still gaining a hitter which adds to their lineup confidence. Not only do we lose a hitter but their pitchers are much better hitters, their lineup doesn't have to be juggled, and most AL pitchers don't have any experience running the bases and pitching after they just ran the bases. And another thing if an NL player has a player that's hurting/old like Berkman/Griffey they can DH them in an AL Park, so that's another benefit. And a guy like Ortiz goes to the NL and has to try to play 1B or has to sit...Disadvanges all around for AL teams and one small one for NL teams. I'd say the disadvange on a scale of 1-10 for an AL team in an NL park is a 15, as opposed to maybe a 3-4 for an NL team in an AL park.

I've tried to explan this to numerous people and you are one of the few people that actually agrees with me. NL teams don't setup their roster for a DH. Their extra guys are pinch hitters, platoon players, defensive replacements, etc. The tools they have might overlap with a DH, but they aren't DH's. For instance, the extra guy that HOU added to the lineup for one game against us was hitting around .220. Telling both teams that they can use a DH doesn't make everything equal when the NL team doesn't setup it's roster for one.

OTOH, the advantage that NL teams have when the pitcher hits is overstated. Pitchers are paid to pitch and therefore, the hitting talent among pitchers is somewhat uniformly spread throughout both leagues. Yes, NL pichers are somewhat more prepared, but just because a guy is in the AL doesn't automatically mean he can't hit. Just because a guy is in the NL, doesn't mean he can. Hitting is not what pitchers are paid to do. DCab would suck no matter where he hit, and so does Jamie Moyer. Mussina and Bedard actually know what the hell they are doing and haven't thrown one pitch in the NL.

The cliffs notes verson: the AL has the advantage beacause the net gain of having a DH outweighs the small loss of not having a prepared pitcher. The fair thing would be to make both leagues the same regardless of which rule you use (though I prefer the DH).

[PoorMike]

There is no "real" argument for the DH and no "real" argument against it. It's a matter of preference. It's ketchup and mustard. You might like one and not the other, or you might like both equally. But they're not the same, and someone else might feel differently. But it's just ketchup and mustard.

I disagree.

One argument for a DH is that a pitcher is actually performing an act that is fundamentally different from anything else that any other player is doing. He's exertng himself mentally and physically on every single play while other dudes stand around and watch.

I don't see 1bmen icing their arms after a game.

Again, I think it's more important that both league have the same rules, bt if I had to choose, I'd take the college DH rule.

[Bloopandablast]

I've got no interest in the issue of specialization at all. I could care less honestly. You brought up the issue. I merely pointed out that the game is full of specialization in a gazillion different ways so you saying that you don't like specialization seems a bit odd considering the nature of the sport.

What I want to see is a good game where I'm actually interested in seeing what happens. That doesn't happen when virtually every pitcher is at the plate. Despite RZNJ taking my point about best against the best to the logical extreme, that is basically my position. I want to see people hitting who are in the majors because they are to some degree capable as hitters. If a GM were told that he could no longer have the DH and that Josh Beckett would never do anything but strike out in each and every at bat, teams would still clamor to sign Josh Beckett. Why? Because what he does on the mound is the reason he is in the majors.

No, what I stated is that in the game there is too much specialization. The DH is one example. You pushed the point that it was all or none or else I was just picking and choosing what specialization I liked. My response is very simply that you are doing the same thing. You put your line in a different place. But you have one nonetheless.

As far as the game being more exciting because of it, that is a matter of perspective. We could introduce a lot of rule changes to make the game more offensive in nature and therefore by your definition more exciting. At some point in time we leave the basics of the game altogether.

I would like to see multidimensional baseball players. It is why I will always consider Willie better than Hank and Babe and why I will always consider Maddux to be better than Glavine.

It's why I hate a 39 year-old DH collecting a paycheck running up his career stats because he no longer has to play the field.

[Greg Pappas]

Ok, lets play all games in the daytime, play on real grass, no domes and best of all, no MINORITIES. Make it an all white sport.

Yeah, lets get back the real purity of the game.

This is a ridiculous post. Sailor Jerry simply shared his view that he prefers NL ball and enjoys the purity of it... and you hit him with this garbage? You should be ashamed to post that.