TT: Orioles Games of Thrones and the Way Forward

[TonySoprano]

1 hour ago, wildcard said:

https://baseball.realgm.com/wiretap/45379/Manny-Machado-Could-Command-$400M-Contract

June 3 2016

Dan Lozano is does not sell low.  His clients include  Albert Pujols, Joey Votto, Alex Rodriguez.

Weams gets my point.

1 hour ago, weams said:

I don't believe the Agent is asking any amount. What it would have taken when things were "close" years ago is only speculation. Manny keeps this season up, he'll get his 400.

This was October  2015, way before any speculation of Bryce Harper getting $400M (which led some in the media to make comparison's to ManNY's situation).

Quote

Orioles executive vice president Dan Duquette said he was encouraged that third baseman Manny Machado said before Sunday's season finale he was open to a long-term extension, but added that more pressing priorities exist this offseason.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bs-sp-orioles-notebook-1006-20151005-story.html

A year later, still on the "back burner"

 

[wildcard]

41 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

Weams gets my point.

This was October  2015, way before any speculation of Bryce Harper getting $400M (which led some in the media to make comparison's to ManNY's situation).

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bs-sp-orioles-notebook-1006-20151005-story.html

A year later, still on the "back burner"

 

Manny had surgery in the 2013 off season on his knee.  And again in the 2014 off season on the other knee.  So after the 2015 season you are saying sign him to a 10 year deal?    Was the risk on injury too high at that point?  Were the sugeries going to hold?  Would the O's doctor approved  that?

[Tony-OH]

40 minutes ago, TonySoprano said:

 

 

When was the last time the Orioles signed a MLB defining contract to anyone? When was the last time they extended a player after just three seasons in the big leagues to a top-tier overall major league contract?

I think this is well above any GM decision but more of any ownership decision. It's easy to say now that Manny should have been locked up, but Manny was had two knee surgeries at the time and it's 25 he already looks like he's step slower then he was when he came up.

Now Manny Machado is going to be a very rich young man by someone, and if the Orioles were built well, winning, and hadn't dumped their resources into Chris Davis, then perhaps I could see them thinking about trying to resign Machado.

But why would Machado resign here with all of the unknown going on the warehouse, the losing, and the lack of plan for the future? 

Plus, I've also heard that Manny is not a huge fan of Buck. Now I don't have that confirmed and I doubt you will ever get him to say that publicly, but just something I heard.

I don't think anyone is to "blame" for Manny not resigning here. It's just one of those situations where at this point it doesn't make much sense from his or the teams perspective.

I hope I'm wrong because I would love to see Manny as a career Oriole, but I don't see it happening.

[TonySoprano]

36 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Manny had surgery in the 2013 off season on his knee.  And again in the 2014 off season on the other knee.  So after the 2015 season you are saying sign him to a 10 year deal?    Was the risk on injury too high at that point?  Were the sugeries going to hold?  Would the O's doctor approved  that?

29 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

It's easy to say now that Manny should have been locked up, but Manny was had two knee surgeries at the time and it's 25 he already looks like he's step slower then he was when he came up.

It didn't have to be a 10-year deal, but even a deal of half that length would have him signed through 2020.  

Machado played all 162 games in 2015.  He won his second gold glove,  hit 35 HRs, drove in 86 runs, and had an OPS+ of 130 ( https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/machama01.shtml ).   I think its safe to say his health concerns were in the past after the season, unless the team physicians were Doctors Howard, Fine, and Howard.

 

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, wildcard said:

Manny had surgery in the 2013 off season on his knee.  And again in the 2014 off season on the other knee.  So after the 2015 season you are saying sign him to a 10 year deal?    Was the risk on injury too high at that point?  Were the sugeries going to hold?  Would the O's doctor approved  that?

The 2014 surgery was in August, not the offseason.   And then in 2015 Manny played all 162 games.   There had been ample reporting that the cause of Manny’s knee injuries was a congenital defect that, once repaired, should not recur.   So yes, I would have signed him to a 10-year deal in 2015.   And it wouldn’t have taken $400 mm.

The Orioles were way too passive on this.   It’s been obvious to anyone with eyes that Manny was the most talented player to come through our farm system in a generation.   Obvious from when he first set foot on the field.   But the O’s always has “more pressing priorities” than locking down their best player.    Idiotic.

[LC_O's_87]

9 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The 2014 surgery was in August, not the offseason.   And then in 2015 Manny played all 162 games.   There had been ample reporting that the cause of Manny’s knee injuries was a congenital defect that, once repaired, should not recur.   So yes, I would have signed him to a 10-year deal in 2015.   And it wouldn’t have taken $400 mm.

The Orioles were way too passive on this.   It’s been obvious to anyone with eyes that Manny was the most talented player to come through our farm system in a generation.   Obvious from when he first set foot on the field.   But the O’s always has “more pressing priorities” than locking down their best player.    Idiotic.

While I agree with you, I think (given it's not your money and with the benefit of hindsight),  you are downplaying  the risk a bit.

 

 

[Camden_yardbird]

I don't know if they could have signed Manny, but one of my real criticisms of this administration is the lack of prearb or 1st year arb extensions.  It's one thing that smaller market teams MUST do well to succeed.  

[wildcard]

22 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

When was the last time the Orioles signed a MLB defining contract to anyone? When was the last time they extended a player after just three seasons in the big leagues to a top-tier overall major league contract?

I think this is well above any GM decision but more of any ownership decision. It's easy to say now that Manny should have been locked up, but Manny was had two knee surgeries at the time and it's 25 he already looks like he's step slower then he was when he came up.

Now Manny Machado is going to be a very rich young man by someone, and if the Orioles were built well, winning, and hadn't dumped their resources into Chris Davis, then perhaps I could see them thinking about trying to resign Machado.

But why would Machado resign here with all of the unknown going on the warehouse, the losing, and the lack of plan for the future? 

Plus, I've also heard that Manny is not a huge fan of Buck. Now I don't have that confirmed and I doubt you will ever get him to say that publicly, but just something I heard.

I don't think anyone is to "blame" for Manny not resigning here. It's just one of those situations where at this point it doesn't make much sense from his or the teams perspective.

I hope I'm wrong because I would love to see Manny as a career Oriole, but I don't see it happening.

I agree.

[TonySoprano]

7 minutes ago, Tony-OH said:

When was the last time the Orioles signed a MLB defining contract to anyone? When was the last time they extended a player after just three seasons in the big leagues to a top-tier overall major league contract?

I think this is well above any GM decision but more of any ownership decision. It's easy to say now that Manny should have been locked up, but Manny was had two knee surgeries at the time and it's 25 he already looks like he's step slower then he was when he came up.

Now Manny Machado is going to be a very rich young man by someone, and if the Orioles were built well, winning, and hadn't dumped their resources into Chris Davis, then perhaps I could see them thinking about trying to resign Machado.

But why would Machado resign here with all of the unknown going on the warehouse, the losing, and the lack of plan for the future? 

Plus, I've also heard that Manny is not a huge fan of Buck. Now I don't have that confirmed and I doubt you will ever get him to say that publicly, but just something I heard.

I don't think anyone is to "blame" for Manny not resigning here. It's just one of those situations where at this point it doesn't make much sense from his or the teams perspective.

I hope I'm wrong because I would love to see Manny as a career Oriole, but I don't see it happening.

Manny was in his 4th season here after the 2015 season; Duquette gave Jones a 6 year extension after his 5th season in an Orioles uniform.  Manny as a career Oriole will never happen, in my opinion.  To me this is Mussina-redux.  In 1999, Wren brought Angelos an extension deal for Mussina, but Angelos waited until his contract year and Mussina's value only increased.  We'll agree to disagree who to blame there.

I agree with you about the unknowns now, but that wasn't the case in 2015.  ManNY's extension would have been ownership approved, no doubt, but you can say that about plenty of Orioles contracts. 

Your insight into the ManNY-Buck dynamic is new and revealing - thanks.   

[glenn__davis]

24 minutes ago, Frobby said:

The Orioles were way too passive on this.   It’s been obvious to anyone with eyes that Manny was the most talented player to come through our farm system in a generation.   Obvious from when he first set foot on the field.   But the O’s always has “more pressing priorities” than locking down their best player.    Idiotic.

I think there was a lot more negotiating then what the O's let on.  I personally don't believe Manny ever had intentions of signing here long term unless blown away with a monster offer.  And that's not me "blaming" Manny and taking the Orioles' side, Manny has the right to do what we wants.

Where they were slow was in trading him - if you knew you weren't going to sign him, he should have been traded much sooner, like during the 2016/2017 offseason.  But that, IMO, is where ownership interferes with ridiculous policies like not trading a star player when the fans have already paid for season tickets.  

[Frobby]

23 minutes ago, LC_O's_87 said:

While I agree with you, I think (given it's not your money and with the benefit of hindsight),  you are downplaying  the risk a bit.

 

 

Not hindsight:

 

[Aristotelian]

1 hour ago, Frobby said:

The 2014 surgery was in August, not the offseason.   And then in 2015 Manny played all 162 games.   There had been ample reporting that the cause of Manny’s knee injuries was a congenital defect that, once repaired, should not recur.   So yes, I would have signed him to a 10-year deal in 2015.   And it wouldn’t have taken $400 mm.

The Orioles were way too passive on this.   It’s been obvious to anyone with eyes that Manny was the most talented player to come through our farm system in a generation.   Obvious from when he first set foot on the field.   But the O’s always has “more pressing priorities” than locking down their best player.    Idiotic.

There was never any indication Manny would sign with the Orioles for any (reasonable) price. He strikes me as the type of guy who believes in himself and will take the risk to be recognized as the best player in the world. I am guessing if the O's had made that offer, he comes back with a number $50M higher and it goes badly from there. All of Manny's quotes about staying in Baltimore have sounded like pro forma, what every agent instructs their player to say in order to keep from burning bridges and nothing more.

[Frobby]

10 minutes ago, Aristotelian said:

There was never any indication Manny would sign with the Orioles for any (reasonable) price. He strikes me as the type of guy who believes in himself and will take the risk to be recognized as the best player in the world. I am guessing if the O's had made that offer, he comes back with a number $50M higher and it goes badly from there. All of Manny's quotes about staying in Baltimore have sounded like pro forma, what every agent instructs their player to say in order to keep from burning bridges and nothing more.

Look, if the two sides couldn’t come to a deal, that’s one thing, but I’ve seen zero signs that the Orioles tried any time in the last 4 years or so.    And Manny made numerous statements that he was open to it and would like to be here long term.   You can question whether those statements were sincere or just made to keep the fan base happy, but there’s no indication that Manny’s agent wouldn’t have engaged if seriously approached.    

[Aristotelian]

44 minutes ago, Frobby said:

Look, if the two sides couldn’t come to a deal, that’s one thing, but I’ve seen zero signs that the Orioles tried any time in the last 4 years or so.    And Manny made numerous statements that he was open to it and would like to be here long term.   You can question whether those statements were sincere or just made to keep the fan base happy, but there’s no indication that Manny’s agent wouldn’t have engaged if seriously approached.    

I agree, but not being on the inside I wouldn't necessarily assume that nothing was tried. It would not surprise me if Manny's agent said something that signaling that they would only embarrass themselves by leaking numbers to the public. If the Orioles never talked to Manny's agent once or even considered the idea of an extension, I agree of course that would be foolish. I can't believe they are that stupid, but it's pretty sad that a reasonable person could certainly conclude that they are from the totality of the evidence.

[foxfield]

23 hours ago, LookitsPuck said:

I don't buy that argument, honestly. I think it's more likely that in the 2014-2015 offseason, Duquette spent most of his time entertaining the Blue Jays scenario, punted the offseason...and then scrambled in late January/February to try and shore up the holes of the club. After all, the club was offering multi-year deals to both Cruz and Markakis.

I think there is ample evidence that DD, while not immune to making mistakes was perfectly capable of doing his job, if not hampered in decision making.  Seriously, ask yourself this question.  If ownership believed DD was not only willing to be disloyal and leave, but also not willing to do his job...he could have been fired, or he could have been locked in a room in the warehouse until the end of this season and not allowed to harm the Orioles.

No, what is going on here is dysfunctional behavior and it comes from the top.  Even if what you say were literally true, why wouldn't the Orioles have completely stripped him of power or fired him?  Any other employer would have.

23 hours ago, LookitsPuck said:

I don't know how you take that out of this article.

If anything, the argument should be one of possibly two:

1. Fire Duquette and give Brady the reins

2. Hire a new GM and clearly set the roles/barriers for new GM and Brady

Brady is a cancer for the organization.  Maybe he is a decent person and I do appreciate and believe he genuinely wants the Orioles to win.  That said there are two thoughts that constantly ring out here. If he were so valuable, why hasn't any other team snapped him up?  And if he were given even more power, who expects things to get better based on what we have seen?

 

22 hours ago, wildcard said:

Brady changed Mancini's batting stance in Bowie and it resulted in more power.

I think he has positive influence in places, but it has been players that have complained to the Players Association about his dual role of being in the locker room and part of management.  Besides, I saw Cal Ripken in 1982 before he moved to SS and said hey Cal, keep it up and you will be a HOF'er.  That doesn't make me GM material.