TT: Orioles Games of Thrones and the Way Forward

[Tx Oriole]

5 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

A lot of this you will know if you have been following along here at the Hangout and in other places, but hopefully this can put it out there for all to be able to reference.

http://www.orioleshangout.com/2018/05/09/orioles-game-of-thrones-and-the-way-forward/

Hope you enjoy the piece.

Thank you Tony. Very good write up. 

[Tx Oriole]

1 hour ago, mdbdotcom said:

So, is there still a chance we'll be buyers at the deadline? Asking for a friend.

That's what I'm afraid of. That Peter will stop any trades. 

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, tntoriole said:

Would you rank order the responsibility for the current mess as 1.Peter Angelos  2.Buck and Brady  about equal  with Duquette a very distant 3...   or no? 

Thanks so much for the research!  Great stuff!! 

 

I'm not sure I'm comfortable ranking an order. Saying that, I was a military guy so the commander always has to take responsibility. The commander of the Orioles has always been Peter Angelos.

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, TonySoprano said:

Tony must be hearing a lot of the same rumblings that people like Rosenthal also do because they make a lot of very similar points.

For example, from Rosenthal's article last month ( https://theathletic.com/312364/2018/04/13/rosenthal-the-orioles-are-a-team-in-upheaval-from-the-field-to-the-front-office/ )

As to Sweater Vest being upset by the Showalter hire, I'm reminded of the Fable of the Scorpion (Angelos) and the Frog (MacPhail) ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog )  Andy remains the only one given the title of Team President, but who exactly did he think hired him?  Angelos as meddler is very well documented back to the days of Pat Gillick.  Andy worked directly with Peter to dump Sammy Sosa on the 2005 Orioles.  As to being worried about people going backdoor to Angelos, Angelos encourages that (see Mazzilli, Lee and Dempsey, Rick) Did Andy really think his relationship would be any different than any of his predecessors?  Frog, meet Scorpion.

Well I don't have a subscription so that's the first I've seen that article. It is good to know he's hearing a lot of the same things. 

[Tony-OH]

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

Tony, Thanks for the insight.   Its a good accounting of the past.  I do have some questions though.

1) Why do you down play Buck's possible expanded role in the future?   You seem to focus on Brady but I am betting that Buck has as much influence with Peter and John.  Buck has played the palace power struggle for years and has done it well in Baltimore for 7+ years.   He is the only one that has built a team that won 100 games.   I'd like to understand why you think Buck will not emerge as the dominate strategist going forward?

In the article I explained why I think he has lost some influence. Plus, when was the last time a manager who will be coming off two straight losing season got a promotion to become VP of Baseball Operations? I'd never put anything past the Orioles, but I don't see it happening.

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

2) Why does everything have to be labeled Brady's move or Buck's move or Dan's move? Brady gets a lot of credit for signing Cashner and Cobb but it appeared to me that Buck and Dan were in the loop the whole time.  Brady was just the front man with the pitchers.  That doesn't mean he was the strategist.   Waiting until  ST to sign them is Dan's M.O.   The deferral of Cashner salary is also a Dan thing along with Peter.   Buck was very vocal about getting established pitchers even when many of us never thought Peter would go 4 years for Cobb.

Well, you can certainly have any opinion you like on who you think was in the loop or not.

2 hours ago, wildcard said:

3)  Why did not include Adam Jones in the major influencers on signing Davis?   Cal and Brady had direct relationships with Peter as a result of their extension negotiation and Adam as the O's unofficial team captain followed in their foot steps and negotiated with Peter on his contract.  Adam also weighed  in with a meeting with Peter on signing Davis.

Quite simply because this article was about the trio and the inner workings. 

 

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, gmelson26 said:

Tony, this is largely my question.  Do you have any important from anyone that would suggest why ownership would/could justify a Brady GM given his historical involvement with the roster construction?

I just cannot come up with an actual rational reason why.  He's a good guy?  What are we missing in this equation?  Tillman (part 2), Wright, O'Day, Reimold, Trumbo, Cashner, Cobb, and a seemingly flagrant lack of interest in the day-to-day operations of a GM... why would anyone-- even someone who likes the guy-- think that Brady is the guy who's going to right this ship?

Brady has one intangible that has always been the most important thing to staying in the Orioles organization: He was close with Peter Angelos.

I doubt Brady would be considered for this position in any other organization.

[Tony-OH]

1 hour ago, Sessh said:

Heh, an ex from long ago used to get irritated with the incorrect way I spelled things, so I started paying real close attention to that stuff and never stopped. Sticks out like a sore thumb to me when someone spells something wrong. I normally don't say anything, but considering this article is likely to be a big deal, I thought proper spelling might be important. It's spelled that way multiple times in the article. Not a big deal, but I'd want someone to point it out to me and so I did it for him.

My QC changed the spelling and I accepted the changes. My fault though.

[Legend_Of_Joey]

Hopefully this means there will be an "Orange Wedding" at some point soon.

[wildcard]

5 hours ago, Tony-OH said:

In the article I explained why I think he has lost some influence. Plus, when was the last time a manager who will be coming off two straight losing season got a promotion to become VP of Baseball Operations? I'd never put anything past the Orioles, but I don't see it happening.

Well, you can certainly have any opinion you like on who you think was in the loop or not.

Quite simply because this article was about the trio and the inner workings. 

 

I am not suggesting that Buck would become VP of Baseball Operation.  I am asking why Buck could not be the O's manager and also be the O's chief strategist in view on his background in building  a team in AZ?

[Barnaby Graves]

This is a disastrous situation under which to trade Machado.  Not saying they won't, or won't get the right return, just that it bodes very ill.

[Moose Milligan]

Tony, thanks for laying it all out there.  Good article, sticking to the facts.

Brady is evidence that you can truly "fail upwards."

That said, I get it when it comes to Brady wanting to "save" guys.  Look at Brady's ascent here as a player, he was a .220 slap hitter for years before he figured it out in 1992 and put together an All Star year and was arguably a top 5 leadoff hitter for the rest of the decade.  IIRC it was Johnny Oates that told him to stop hitting it on the ground and to drive the ball. 

Oates stuck by him.  Brady, I have to guess, was on the verge of washing out if he didn't get it together right when he did.  I am positive Brady hasn't forgotten that and wants to pay it forward to guys who might be on the outs.  I would guarantee that he felt that way when working with Reimold.  

If Brady is going to be the guy moving forward...well, I'll hope for the best and give him a shot.  

[TonySoprano]

13 minutes ago, Moose Milligan said:

Brady is evidence that you can truly "fail upwards."

The Peter [Angelos] Principle

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_principle

[mall-O-cup]

Great synopsis of the last 6-7 years and what has brought us to this point.

After reading this article I wouldn't mind if all of them go (Brady, Duquette, and Buck).

Also hoping that Peter is largely if not entirely out of the decision making process. 

# Start Fresh.

Thanks again.

[Legend_Of_Joey]

Orioles are 1-0 since this was made public. 

[NashLumber]

I dozed off this afternoon and had one of those half-dreams that was so brief that it’s hard to recall all of it. But I think the gist of the dream was that the Angelos years were all based around an owner who was a Keyser Söze type character who really didn’t exist and was just created by bumbling front office executives as a way to let themselves off the hook regarding any blame on how directionless the team actually was.


"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.”