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Orioles: Most inept organization in all of profesional sports?

foxfield

By foxfield
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NCRaven Hangout Grand Counsel

NCRaven

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I think that the reason Caleb Joseph has started a lot of the early games is that we've faced a lot of left-handed starting pitchers.  It's got nothing to do with loyalty.  If Sisco gets most of the starts against righties, he'll probably start more than half our games.  That's what I expect.

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atomic Hangout Grand Counsel

atomic

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2 hours ago, SteveA said:

Posted that in this thread a couple hours ago, but none of the sharks took time from the feeding frenzy to read it, I guess.

I read it.  I don't agree with it.  Connoly is the guy who had a problem with Cashner's beard yet has some outdated goatee.  Really when a guy is writing articles bashing players beards when theirs look a lot better than his I can't take him seriously.  

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SteveA Hangout Grand Counsel

SteveA

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5 minutes ago, atomic said:

Has Buck managed a team that has gotten to the World Series?  I mean what does he have 20 years experience?  Didn't the teams win the World Series right after he was fired?  Didn't the team do just as poorly with Buck in 2011 as they did the previous years with Trembley who was a pretty awful manager? 

Yes, he had a bad year 7 years ago.

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SteveA Hangout Grand Counsel

SteveA

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9 minutes ago, atomic said:

Not really.  Someone just posted odds of managers getting fired and buck was like even odds and number one by a long shot.  When your team has won less than 25 percent of the games it has played int he last 40 it is pretty normal to think the manager might get fired.  The team finished in last place last season and is in last place now.  They spent a bunch of money to upgrade the rotation and no results.  

Also people complain about Buck sticking with Tillman when he is clearly done.  But that is what your support for Buck is.  You want to keep Buck for sentimental reasons.   When he has clearly lost the team and is making decisions almost everyone disagrees with.   People also are complaining about the pitching and hitting coaches Buck hired.  Complaining that Buck moved Manny to Short.  Really complaining  about everything  he has done. 

 

There would be individual decisions by ANY manager that we would complain about.   It's part of the charm of the game of baseball.   Plenty of room for second guessing.   We really don't have a lot of options besides Tillman, as ugly as he has been.   Wright?   Cortes -- failed, returned to Yankees.   Ynoa -- hurt.   Mesa -- returned to Yankees.

As I have said, if Buck has been a driving factor for some of the terrible personnel moves we have made, that is a serious problem, and is part of overall organizational dysfunciton, that has to be deal with top to bottom.   We need to have clear lines of authority and responsibilities.

But just as a manager, I think it is very likely if we fire Buck we will probably get someone who is not as good a manager.   We will probably not exceed the sabermetric prediction for our team seven years running.  

If Buck has to go because the organization moving forward needs a hierarchy where the manager doesn't have too much power for personnel moves, then so be it.   I'll miss him.   I don't think making the move in April makes any sense whatsoever.

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SteveA Hangout Grand Counsel

SteveA

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4 minutes ago, atomic said:

And a bad year in 2016 and 2017 and 2018.  His career is quite similar to Tillman's. 

Really?

Our win total exceeded the Pecota projection in both 2016 and 2017.   We did better than the numbers said we shoudl.

We shall see about 2018.

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atomic Hangout Grand Counsel

atomic

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9 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Really?

Our win total exceeded the Pecota projection in both 2016 and 2017.   We did better than the numbers said we shoudl.

We shall see about 2018.

Did PECOTA predict pitching Jiminez over Britton in the playoffs?  

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SteveA Hangout Grand Counsel

SteveA

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Just now, atomic said:

 

Did PECOTA predict pitching Jiminez over Britton in the playoffs?  

Of course not, it said we wouldn't make the playoffs.

That was a horrible move, as I said at the time.   A terrible decision in a critical game.

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atomic Hangout Grand Counsel

atomic

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Just now, SteveA said:

Of course not, it said we wouldn't make the playoffs.

That was a horrible move, as I said at the time.   A terrible decision in a critical game.

To me that game is enough to fire Buck.  And I am sure if that happened in Boston or New York he would have been fired after that game.  The team has played badly ever since that game. I think the team lost faith in Buck.  Should have fired him then.  

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Frobby Hangout Grand Counsel

Frobby

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29 minutes ago, atomic said:

Has Buck managed a team that has gotten to the World Series?  I mean what does he have 20 years experience?  Didn't the teams win the World Series right after he was fired?  Didn't the team do just as poorly with Buck in 2011 as they did the previous years with Trembley who was a pretty awful manager? 

The Orioles were on pace to go 49-113 in 2010 when Buck arrived.   Therefore, while the team “only” improved by three games in 2011 compared to their final 2010 record, they improved by 20 games over where they were headed the previous season before Buck stepped in and righted the ship.   

I really hate it when people try to assign all the credit or all the blame to any one person when the team improves or declines.    It’s always a combination of things.   It’s not even all Dan or Buck, either.   Sometimes a guy like Adam Jones or Chris Davis just hits his prime, or a star like Manny is ready for the majors.   Those things can be game changers, just as a guy going into a sudden decline or getting hurt through nobody’s fault can be a game changer.

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SteveA Hangout Grand Counsel

SteveA

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Just now, atomic said:

To me that game is enough to fire Buck.  And I am sure if that happened in Boston or New York he would have been fired after that game.  The team has played badly ever since that game. I think the team lost faith in Buck.  Should have fired him then.  

OK, then we can agree to disagree.

Even if he "should have" been fired then, I still say changing managers in April is a silly, panic move.  

It's interesting, I don't have time today, but I'm going to go back to the win total prediction thread.   It SEEMS to me, but I would have to study it if I am wrong, is that some of the people who picked low win totals for the Orioles are the ones most wanting to fire the manager after this bad start.

Which is kind of backwards... if you thought the team would be bad, then you shouldn't be blaming the manager as much.   Someone who predicted 85 wins should be wanting to fire the manager the most.   Yet I don't THINK they are (as I said, I would have to go back and check).

Very interesting psychology at work there.   If I am right.

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Sessh Hangout Veteran Council

Sessh

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3 minutes ago, SteveA said:

Really?

Our win total exceeded the Pecota projection in both 2016 and 2017.   We did better than the numbers said we shoudl.

We shall see about 2018.

I don't agree with firing Buck now mostly because there are numerous things that need to be dealt with in this organization. Doing one without several of the others doesn't really deal with the underlying problems. However, judging Buck's success based on whether or not his team's records exceed some made up algorithm is kind of ridiculous. The goal of a baseball season isn't to exceed pecota; it's to win a championship. Buck had some very good teams here and did nothing with them.

He had Davis while he was good, Cruz, one of the best bullpens in baseball including the most dominant closer in the game, Machado, Jones in his prime, Hardy at the tail end of his best years, Tillman when he was good, a couple decent years of Gausman, Schoop, Miggy Gonzalez etc...

Pecota projections mean S to me. Absolutely nothing. He's had good teams in the past and done equally nothing with them as well and single handedly cost teams their best chance to win in two of his five career postseason appearances. Winning a championship is the goal. Consistently falling short in the postseason no matter how good of a team you have to work with is a much better indicator than some algorithm invented by a sports writer.

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atomic Hangout Grand Counsel

atomic

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Just now, Frobby said:

The Orioles were on pace to go 49-113 in 2010 when Buck arrived.   Therefore, while the team “only” improved by three games in 2011 compared to their final record, they improved by 20 games over where they were headed the previous season before Buck stepped in and righted the ship.   

I really hate it when people try to assign all the credit or all the blame to any one person when the team improves or declines.    It’s always a combination of things.   It’s not even all Dan or Buck, either.   Sometimes a guy like Adam Jones or Chris Davis just hits his prime, or a star like Manny is ready for the majors.   Those things can be game changers, just as a guy going into a sudden decline or getting hurt through nobody’s fault can be a game changer.

I think Buck improved the team when he got here.  The players didn't even know what base to throw the ball to and were making base running mistakes left and right.  Pitchers weren't throwing strikes.  I just think he has regressed as a manager and t he has lost the team.  And he lets the veterans run the club.  Sometimes a change is just needed in sports.  A fresh perspective can help.  

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Aglets Hangout Grand Counsel

Aglets

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2 minutes ago, atomic said:

To me that game is enough to fire Buck.  And I am sure if that happened in Boston or New York he would have been fired after that game.  The team has played badly ever since that game. I think the team lost faith in Buck.  Should have fired him then.  

Just not true.    Outright falsehoods in this post.    Yes it was a bad move in that playoff game, but you don't fire a manager for one bad decision........otherwise no manager would last more than a year.   We played very well in 2017 considering we had (literally) the worst rotation in MLB.  Teams like that do not end up in playoff contention.......yet we were doing just that at the end of August.  

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atomic Hangout Grand Counsel

atomic

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3 minutes ago, SteveA said:

OK, then we can agree to disagree.

Even if he "should have" been fired then, I still say changing managers in April is a silly, panic move.  

It's interesting, I don't have time today, but I'm going to go back to the win total prediction thread.   It SEEMS to me, but I would have to study it if I am wrong, is that some of the people who picked low win totals for the Orioles are the ones most wanting to fire the manager after this bad start.

Which is kind of backwards... if you thought the team would be bad, then you shouldn't be blaming the manager as much.   Someone who predicted 85 wins should be wanting to fire the manager the most.   Yet I don't THINK they are (as I said, I would have to go back and check).

Very interesting psychology at work there.   If I am right.

I was optimistic at the beginning of the season.  

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